True and False Prophets - Just and Honest Determination

[WonderingWorrier]

It's easy to say that when you only include Abrahamic religions. Can you show some verses from Hinduism and Buddhism that support one God. And explain why in some sects of Hinduism there are many Gods.

I have a possible explanation. To show you I could go a bit further than the wolf with the sheep that I showed @Trailblazer before.

Here:

Ezekiel also puts his wolf with the sheep. As he puts Benjamin with Joseph:
And at the east side four thousand and five hundred: and three gates; and one gate of Joseph, one gate of Benjamin, one gate of Dan. Ezekiel

Joseph is as the sheep:
Give ear, O Shepherd of Israel, thou that leadest Joseph like a flock; thou that dwellest between the cherubims, shine forth. Psalm

Benjamin is as the wolf:
Benjamin shall ravin as a wolf: in the morning he shall devour the prey, and at night he shall divide the spoil. Genesis.

So we have according to one of the twelve positions` a specific being (Joseph) with a sheep symbol associated with it. I could also show you according to scripture Joseph position also has a sun symbol attached to it, and also a bow symbol attached to it.

North - West - East
Cattle Goat - Sheep
Moon - Star - Sun
Spear - Sword - Bow

Which could sound like a god which has the sheep and sun and bow symbols attached etc. But Joseph is not a god. It is one of the twelve positions. Each of the twelve positions has specific symbols assigned to it.

It is more like a Zodiac wheel rather than Joseph being part of a pantheon of gods.


There is a saying in the Rig Veda. "Twelve are the fellies, and the wheel is single, three are the naves, who has understood it?".

In Buddhism there is a wheel.

 

[Muffled]

I decided to put this in the debate section as truth does at times require the clash of differing opinions. (In the right context)

I start the OP with a disclaimer. This is my view based on my understanding of what God has offered Humanity in the religious scriptures. As it is placed in the debate section. I will state this position is that of being founded in the Truth of those scriptures and as such is not able to be proven false (Supported by Scriptures). If you are on the team that want to prove any aspect false. Then it also must be supported by Scriptures, from your source of truth, this is not a debate that is to be supported only by personal views.

I see in Scriptures, that the view there is only one ultimate source of truth which in this OP will be known as God, is fully supported, and that is the purpose for all of humanity to obtain to, the knowledge of the One God.

1 Kings 8:60 "That all the people of the earth may know that the LORD is God, and that there is none else.

Everything is from the One God.

Romans 11:36 "All things come from God, through God, and return to God. Praise him for ever! Yes, it is so!"

That is the position of Truth used to establish the Authenticity of the Prophets, Messengers or Manifestations, all these donate the person who is "Annointed" of the One God, also known as "Messiah" in prophecy. (For this OP Messenger will be used)

Isaiah 11:2 "And the Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge and the fear of the Lord."
Luke 4:18 “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed."

The Annointed Ones, also are supported by one that prepares the way.

Isaiah 40: 1-11 I will.use verse 3

A voice of one calling: “In the wilderness prepare the way for the Lord; make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

Mark 1 supports this for John the Baptist for Jesus, who jesus said was Elijah and Elijah always comes first.

"2as it is written in Isaiah the prophet: “I will send my messenger ahead of you, who will prepare your way”, 3 “a voice of one calling in the wilderness, ‘Prepare the way for the Lord, make straight paths for him.’”"

It would then be logical that all Messengers are supported by a person preparing the way, an "Elijah" proclaiming the soon to arrive Messenger.

Malachi 4:5 “See, I will send the prophet Elijah to you before that great and dreadful day of the LORD comes."

This is not a time of peace as Malachi in verse 6 continues to offer, "He will turn the hearts of the parents to their children, and the hearts of the children to their parents; or else I will come and strike the land with total destruction.”

At this time all things are made new. A True Messenger will give a New Revelation, they will not piggyback from the last Message and identify as one who is giving the last message in its true form. They will be born into a Faith, but claim a new Message from God and give a New book.

Isaiah 43:19 "See, I am doing a new thing! Now it springs up; do you not perceive it? I am making a way in the wilderness and streams in the wasteland."

Revelation 21:5 “And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, ‘Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.’”

There are many considerations, but I will start the OP with but one more consideration, that is the the perdon of the Messenger will be known by their fruit.

Matthew 7:16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

Using this information, I see the position of Truth can state that the last 4 Messengers from God, oldest to newest are Jesus Christ, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

In the cause of the Bab, He was also the Elijah for Baha'u'llah.

The debate is from those that support and oppose that position. What support do you have that Jesus Christ, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah are not Messengers.

It is also possible we can broach the truth of any other claimed Messenger.

View attachment 97978

Regards Tony @CG Didymus

I believe this probably ought to be in Biblical debates or at least scriptural debates.

 

[Muffled]

To clarify, are you saying we can only respond if we can find some Abrahamic scripture to back up our view-points?

I personally would have posted in scriptural debates, but carry on.

I suppose we would have to exclude Bahai writings then since they are only philosophy.

 

[Muffled]

One has to back up any comment with a sound source of knowledge. It need not be Abrahamic Scriptures.

Regards Tony

I believe one might find some sound knowledge outside Abrahamic writings but not much.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I suppose we would have to exclude Bahai writings then since they are only philosophy.

I believe one might find some sound knowledge outside Abrahamic writings but not much.

Then you have just offered that no Just and Honest Determination will be made on your part.

History shows that Jesus faced such wanted ignorance of the Truth, that Jesus had brought. The learned of the age offering the same type of rebuttal.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I believe one might find some sound knowledge outside Abrahamic writings but not much.

That is already closing one's mind and it is not possible to undertake a just and honest determination with that mindset.

Regards Tony

 

[WonderingWorrier]

One has to back up any comment with a sound source of knowledge. It need not be Abrahamic Scriptures.

I could expand on what I said before.

As the Quran says:
"It is We Who have set out the zodiacal signs in the heavens, and made them fair-seeming to (all) beholders". 15:16

"Verily in Joseph and his brethren are signs (or symbols) for seekers (after Truth)". 12:7



I know according to the Bible the twelve positions of Joseph and his brothers do have very specific symbols attached to them. Like I showed before in the East Joseph as sheep, and Benjamin as wolf.

And I know that is the reason why Ephraim is said to have a bow, because Ephraim is of Joseph. Just like Benjamin is said to have a bow. As they are of the same direction.

Ephraim with bow:
"The children of Ephraim, being armed, and carrying bows, turned back in the day of battle". Psalm

And here you can see Benjamin with bow, but also notice Judah with spear:
"And Asa had an army of men that bare targets and spears, out of Judah three hundred thousand; and out of Benjamin, that bare shields and drew bows, two hundred and fourscore thousand: all these were mighty men of valour". Chronicles.


Judah has spear like cattle have spear:
"Rebuke the company of spearmen, the multitude of the bulls, with the calves of the people, till every one submit himself with pieces of silver: scatter thou the people that delight in war". Psalm.


Because Reuben is as cattle:
"Now the children of Reuben and the children of Gad had a very great multitude of cattle: and when they saw the land of Jazer, and the land of Gilead, that, behold, the place was a place for cattle". Numbers.

And Judah is as lion:
"And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof". Revelation.


So as said: the wolf is with the lamb, and the lion is with the calf:
"The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them". Isaiah.


Because Reuben and Judah are together in the North:
And the gates of the city shall be after the names of the tribes of Israel: three gates northward; one gate of Reuben, one gate of Judah, one gate of Levi. Ezekiel.

So just as I have shown the wolf is with the sheep as Benjamin is with Joseph in the East, I can show the lion is with the cattle in the North (Judah and Reuben).

North - West - East
Cattle - Goat - Sheep
Lion - Leopard - Wolf
Spear - Sword - Bow

So is this specific positioning of symbols clear, or not?

Can you hear the messengers word structure?

History shows that Jesus faced such wanted ignorance of the Truth, that Jesus had brought. The learned of the age offering the same type of rebuttal.

The Quran says:
"There is, in their stories, instruction for men endued with understanding. It is not a tale invented, but a confirmation of what went before it,- a detailed exposition of all things, and a guide and a mercy to any such as believe". 12:111

"When Our Signs are rehearsed to them, they say: "We have heard this (before): if we wished, we could say (words) like these: these are nothing but tales of the ancients". 8:31

 

[loverofhumanity]

It's easy to say that when you only include Abrahamic religions. Can you show some verses from Hinduism and Buddhism that support one God. And explain why in some sects of Hinduism there are many Gods. And that at least in some, or maybe most, sects of Buddhism, there is no God?

Shaivism is one of the largest denominations of Hinduism, and its followers worship Shiva, sometimes known as “The Destroyer,” as their supreme deity.​

​

Vaishnavism recognizes many deities, including Vishnu, Lakshmi, Krishna and Rama...​

​

Shaktism is somewhat unique among the four major traditions of Hinduism in that its followers worship a female deity, the goddess Shakti (also known as Devi).​

​

Smartism followers worship five deities: Vishnu, Shiva, Devi, Ganesh and Surya.​

The Theravada school teaches that there is no universal personal god. The world does not have its origin in a primordial being such as brahman or the creator god.​

In the past it was difficult to grasp concepts we take for granted today. Although certain ancient scriptures do speak of one God, people worshipped the attributes of God as separate gods individually without realising they all belonged to One Supreme Lord. So there are gods like the god of love, god of knowledge, god of remover of difficulties, god of wealth, god of power, god the creator, god of protection, god of wisdom and so on,

The 10 Most Important Hindu Gods and Goddesses

Depending on the story, branch of theology, or person you ask, Hindus have anywhere between 33 and 330 million Hindu gods. There are multiple Hindu sects with the four most prominent being: Shaivism (followers of Shiva as their highest god), Vaishnavism (followers of Vishnu as their highest...

historycooperative.org

If you examine all these gods, they also represent and describe the attributes of the one God which the Abrahamic religions worship.

This is a comprehensive list of attributes of God, many of which some religions worship separately and did not conceive that all of them began to One Entity. But they were still worshipping God according to their understanding and all God really asks of us is to be pure in heart.

Bahá'í Library Online

Baha'i articles, books, translations, and historical materials

bahai-library.com

In Buddhism too they turn to Buddha. All the religions have a Central Figure to which they turn to.

 

[CG Didymus]

In the past it was difficult to grasp concepts we take for granted today. Although certain ancient scriptures do speak of one God, people worshipped the attributes of God as separate gods individually without realising they all belonged to One Supreme Lord. So there are gods like the god of love, god of knowledge, god of remover of difficulties, god of wealth, god of power, god the creator, god of protection, god of wisdom and so on,

What's easier to grasp? That there is only one God that does everything? Or many spirit-beings, or Gods, that have different jobs. One controls the weather. One is in charge of fertility. One makes sure the Sun keeps doing it's thing. And then there's one main God keeping an eye on all the lesser Gods to make sure they keep doing their jobs.

Even Baha'is talk about there being other spirit-beings. They are not God, but they are doing some job in the spirit world. Like Baha'is even claim that the manifestations pre-existed and after they lived and died on Earth went back to the spirit world. What are they doing up there? What duties do they perform?

But when it comes to the ancient people believing in multiple Gods, who told them that? Where did they get that idea? Supposedly, Baha'is claim that this one God has always sent his manifestations down to Earth to guide people. Why then did people think there was more than one God?

Is it the usual Baha'i claim that people misunderstood the message? Or was it that people were making up things. Making up stories of the Gods and how they got here?

The way those ancient stories were written, including the Bible, it sounds to me like people were just making things up. Myths about creation and why the world is the way it is... and what happens to people after they die.

Which brings up heaven and hell. Since Baha'is say there is no real place called hell, then where did this belief come from? Certainly a true manifestation of God wouldn't have told the people that. So, could it have been people that made it up?

They needed something to get people to do good, so they told them that heaven awaited those the did good. And that eternal torment in hell awaited those that did evil.

Anyway, I'm good with it all being myth. And how would a Baha'i explain it? That a manifestation God came, told them the truth, then the people made up all kinds of fictional myths and distorted that truth?

That's almost saying the same thing. I just leave out that there was ever a manifestation that gave them some original true message.

 

[CG Didymus]

All the religions have a Central Figure to which they turn to.

They do? Who founded Hinduism? And I have seen quotes that make Adam and Noah manifestations, but let's go with just Abraham. What religion did he found? And what book and new laws did he bring? Then, when Moses came, what new religion did he found? And what book did he bring? And which laws that Abraham had brought did he change?

Or... when you say "all" you are just generalizing? And then only talking about the major religions? And considering how small in numbers a few of the "major" religions are... How do you define which religions are the major ones? And then, is it right to just lump all the sects of one religion into one big thing? As if they all believe the same thing?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Anyway, I'm good with it all being myth. And how would a Baha'i explain it? That a manifestation God came, told them the truth, then the people made up all kinds of fictional myths and distorted that truth?

It is the essence of the purpose of Faith.

God gives a Messenger, that Messenger guides us to all that will promote the peace and security of humanity in that age.

Those that embrace the Messenger, then implement that Guidance and the Given laws, all relative to thier capacity to subdue their own self. To be born again.

Every age will produce those beleivers who are born anew, then those that accept the Message, but struggle to change, those that will be fence sitters and not willing make a commitment, those that reject the change and ignore it and those that see its potential of change and want that power for their own selves, they become the persecutors.

God's given bounty of faith, the ability to know and love God.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

It is the essence of the purpose of Faith.

God gives a Messenger, that Messenger guides us to all that will promote the peace and security of humanity in that age.

Those that embrace the Messenger, then implement that Guidance and the Given laws, all relative to thier capacity to subdue their own self. To be born again.

Every age will produce those beleivers who are born anew, then those that accept the Message, but struggle to change, those that will be fence sitters and not willing make a commitment, those that reject the change and ignore it and those that see its potential of change and want that power for their own selves, they become the persecutors.

God's given bounty of faith, the ability to know and love God.

Regards Tony

To you... Is the Creation Story in Genesis a true story or is it fictional? How about the resurrection story? Is it literally true or is it fictional?

If you say fictional, and what else can you say, how is a fictional religious story different than a myth? Even if it's a fictional story that tells of an important spiritual truth? What else would you call it? But could you still call it a myth?

Does it take a God sent manifestation of God for people to make up spiritual stories about spiritual truths? Does it take a manifestation of God for people to make up laws about what is right and wrong?

But I do believe it makes the story and the laws much more powerful if people are told they came from a God and that the stories really happened.

And I also understand that it would be difficult for a person believing in a religion to admit that their beliefs are just based on fictional stories, because that undermines the power and authority of that religion.

So, in a lot of ways, Baha'is are in the same situation as Born Again Christians. Their beliefs need the Bible stories to be literally true, or their beliefs start to crumble. Then, if the stories about Jesus in the NT aren't literally true, the whole thing falls apart.

Baha'is need certain things to be true about the past religions. If some people keep saying they are not true, then what? Baha'is have to find a way to prove to themselves and to others that they are true.

That's not a good place for any religion to be in. Too subjective and completely unprovable. So, for non-believers, it makes believers look stupid. Kind of like how some people see those Christians that take Genesis way too literally.

 

[loverofhumanity]

What's easier to grasp? That there is only one God that does everything? Or many spirit-beings, or Gods, that have different jobs. One controls the weather. One is in charge of fertility. One makes sure the Sun keeps doing it's thing. And then there's one main God keeping an eye on all the lesser Gods to make sure they keep doing their jobs.

Even Baha'is talk about there being other spirit-beings. They are not God, but they are doing some job in the spirit world. Like Baha'is even claim that the manifestations pre-existed and after they lived and died on Earth went back to the spirit world. What are they doing up there? What duties do they perform?

But when it comes to the ancient people believing in multiple Gods, who told them that? Where did they get that idea? Supposedly, Baha'is claim that this one God has always sent his manifestations down to Earth to guide people. Why then did people think there was more than one God?

Is it the usual Baha'i claim that people misunderstood the message? Or was it that people were making up things. Making up stories of the Gods and how they got here?

The way those ancient stories were written, including the Bible, it sounds to me like people were just making things up. Myths about creation and why the world is the way it is... and what happens to people after they die.

Which brings up heaven and hell. Since Baha'is say there is no real place called hell, then where did this belief come from? Certainly a true manifestation of God wouldn't have told the people that. So, could it have been people that made it up?

They needed something to get people to do good, so they told them that heaven awaited those the did good. And that eternal torment in hell awaited those that did evil.

Anyway, I'm good with it all being myth. And how would a Baha'i explain it? That a manifestation God came, told them the truth, then the people made up all kinds of fictional myths and distorted that truth?

That's almost saying the same thing. I just leave out that there was ever a manifestation that gave them some original true message.

That’s just the way some people understand it that there are multiple gods performing different functions. We do not know what was originally taught as records don’t go that far back but you can see in just a relatively short period how today’s religions have distorted their original message. Christ taught love yet Christianity has become divided over theological arguments instead of sticking to love one another. And Islam teaches peace yet we see militant Islam in many places. So going back thousands of years we don’t know how. But take the Ten Commandments. No sooner had Moses come down from the mountain than they were worshipping a golden calf.

What we do know is that the reason God sends Manifestations regularly is because over time we tend to change the original teachings and adopt man made ones and especially ignore the spiritual teachings such as love, peace and compassion etc. Today’s religions cannot rescue humanity but they themselves are in need of rescue and reform because they cannot unite or bring peace between themselves so how can they bring peace and harmony to the world. That is why God sent Baha’u’llah to inspire people to once again focus on love, unity and harmony and see all as friends, brothers and sisters. So it’s a spiritual renewal or revival to bring love back into a sorely distracted world by wars and conflict.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I decided to put this in the debate section as truth does at times require the clash of differing opinions. (In the right context)

I start the OP with a disclaimer. This is my view based on my understanding of what God has offered Humanity in the religious scriptures. As it is placed in the debate section. I will state this position is that of being founded in the Truth of those scriptures and as such is not able to be proven false (Supported by Scriptures). If you are on the team that want to prove any aspect false. Then it also must be supported by Scriptures, from your source of truth, this is not a debate that is to be supported only by personal views.

I see in Scriptures, that the view there is only one ultimate source of truth which in this OP will be known as God, is fully supported, and that is the purpose for all of humanity to obtain to, the knowledge of the One God.

1 Kings 8:60 "That all the people of the earth may know that the LORD is God, and that there is none else.

Everything is from the One God.

Romans 11:36 "All things come from God, through God, and return to God. Praise him for ever! Yes, it is so!"

That is the position of Truth used to establish the Authenticity of the Prophets, Messengers or Manifestations, all these donate the person who is "Annointed" of the One God, also known as "Messiah" in prophecy. (For this OP Messenger will be used)

Isaiah 11:2 "And the Spirit of the Lord shall rest upon him, the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge and the fear of the Lord."
Luke 4:18 “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed."

The Annointed Ones, also are supported by one that prepares the way.

Isaiah 40: 1-11 I will.use verse 3

A voice of one calling: “In the wilderness prepare the way for the Lord; make straight in the desert a highway for our God.

Mark 1 supports this for John the Baptist for Jesus, who jesus said was Elijah and Elijah always comes first.

"2as it is written in Isaiah the prophet: “I will send my messenger ahead of you, who will prepare your way”, 3 “a voice of one calling in the wilderness, ‘Prepare the way for the Lord, make straight paths for him.’”"

It would then be logical that all Messengers are supported by a person preparing the way, an "Elijah" proclaiming the soon to arrive Messenger.

Malachi 4:5 “See, I will send the prophet Elijah to you before that great and dreadful day of the LORD comes."

This is not a time of peace as Malachi in verse 6 continues to offer, "He will turn the hearts of the parents to their children, and the hearts of the children to their parents; or else I will come and strike the land with total destruction.”

At this time all things are made new. A True Messenger will give a New Revelation, they will not piggyback from the last Message and identify as one who is giving the last message in its true form. They will be born into a Faith, but claim a new Message from God and give a New book.

Isaiah 43:19 "See, I am doing a new thing! Now it springs up; do you not perceive it? I am making a way in the wilderness and streams in the wasteland."

Revelation 21:5 “And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, ‘Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.’”

There are many considerations, but I will start the OP with but one more consideration, that is the the perdon of the Messenger will be known by their fruit.

Matthew 7:16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

Using this information, I see the position of Truth can state that the last 4 Messengers from God, oldest to newest are Jesus Christ, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

In the cause of the Bab, He was also the Elijah for Baha'u'llah.

The debate is from those that support and oppose that position. What support do you have that Jesus Christ, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah are not Messengers.

It is also possible we can broach the truth of any other claimed Messenger.

View attachment 97978

Regards Tony @CG Didymus

Since all your quotes are from the Christian Bible, I assume that by "scriptures" that is what you mean. The problem is, those are not the scriptures for most of the world. We have the Vedas, the Book of Mormon, the Quran, the Tao Te Ching.... For you personally as a Christian, it works to provide "proof" from the Bible. But Bible verses are not proof for anyone outside your religion.

If you want to present your idea that there are real prophets and false prophets, you need to come up with a single standard that you apply to people of all religions (and non-religions).

Furthermore, you cannot use the Bible to validate the Bible, or the words of a Prophet about prophecy to prove that there are prophets. These are forms of circular reasoning.

 

[CG Didymus]

We do not know what was originally taught

But you know that what those other religions teach now is wrong?

you can see in just a relatively short period how today’s religions have distorted their original message.

So, now you do know what the original message was, and that it soon became distorted?

God sends Manifestations regularly is because over time we tend to change the original teachings and adopt man made ones

Again, we don't have the original teachings, so how do you know what was changed?

 

[WonderingWorrier]

God gives a Messenger, that Messenger guides us to all that will promote the peace and security of humanity in that age.

But Jesus very clearly states that he doesn't promote peace:

"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword". Matthew 10:34

So what do you have against the killing of others in the name of Jesus?

Do you think Jesus is therefore not a messenger because he doesn't promote peace?

 

[danieldemol]

But Jesus very clearly states that he doesn't promote peace:

"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword". Matthew 10:34

So what do you have against the killing of others in the name of Jesus?

Do you think Jesus is therefore not a messenger because he doesn't promote peace?

I don't know what Tony has against killing in the name of Jesus, but I know I'm firmly against such religious lunacy as it is a cause of demonstrable harm in my view

 

[TransmutingSoul]

But Jesus very clearly states that he doesn't promote peace:

"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword". Matthew 10:34

So what do you have against the killing of others in the name of Jesus?

Do you think Jesus is therefore not a messenger because he doesn't promote peace?

I see you are misunderstanding the essence of that verse, then state your opinions, twisting them, trying to impart them to me.

Jesus taught peace. The result of not accepting that, manifests in this world as in Matthew 10:34, a result of men's choices not to follow Jesus.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I don't know what Tony has against killing in the name of Jesus, but I know I'm firmly against such religious lunacy as it is a cause of demonstrable harm in my view

It was a very strange reply.

Regards Tony

 

[Sumadji]

History shows that Jesus faced such wanted ignorance of the Truth, that Jesus had brought. The learned of the age offering the same type of rebuttal.

Not really. Even at the age of twelve Jesus was astounding the elders in the temple with his knowledge and wisdom:

So when they did not find him, they returned to Jerusalem, seeking him. Now so it was that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the teachers, both listening to them and asking them questions. And all who heard him were astonished at his understanding and answers.
Luke 2:45-47

He continued for the rest of his life to astound the religious leaders of the age with his wisdom. He taught daily in the temple. The people loved and flocked around Jesus, hanging on his every word. It was because the political (religious) leaders were afraid that Jesus's popularity with the people would draw down the Romans upon them that they had to do away with him.

But Jesus very clearly states that he doesn't promote peace:

"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword". Matthew 10:34

This is rubbish. The verse in context clearly shows that Jesus was talking about how those who followed the spirit would be cut-off from those who followed the material, causing rifts in families. It's so boring that folks keep bringing up this verse out-of-context to try to show Jesus Christ as supporting violence and killing.