True and False Prophets - Just and Honest Determination

[TransmutingSoul]

And it's a futile prayer because it will always be the few who choose the narrow road. I believe God responds to sensible prayers

Yet with a majority, there will be Most Great Peace. A rejected peace in this time, so hundreds of years will be required before the majority choose to submit unto God's Will.

The Lesser Peace will first come about, built by a federation of Nations.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

Jesus taught inner peace.

I know that, but Jesus is not the only one who ever taught inner peace.

He wasn't interested in spreading false stories about peace on earth.

Jesus did not speak of peace on earth because peace on earth was not possible 2000 years ago, and that was not the mission God gave to Jesus to accomplish.

John 16:12-14 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Peace will eventually come to earth, as was promised in the Bible.

Isaiah 9:6-7 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

Baha'is believe that Baha’u’llah was the Prince of Peace and the Lord of hosts and that world peace will be established during His religious dispensation. Please note that the prophecy does not say 'when' peace will be established, but where it says there shall be no end to the peace that indicates that it won't happen all at once but rather it will unfold gradually. The same is true for the government. It says that there shall be 'no end' to the government which means it will begin and be established gradually and continue to develop over time. The government will be more developed in the future as the prophecy says (increase in government).

Baha’u’llah set up a 'system of government' and it has already been established among the Baha’is. The institutions of that government are fully operational, but still in their infancy. What we now refer to as Local Spiritual assemblies (LSAs) and will eventually evolve into what will be called Houses of Justice.

The Buddha taught: Freedom from desire leads to inner peace. It is the heart

I know that, but the Buddha is not the only one who taught that. Jesus taught that and Baha'u'llah taught that, and there may be other Messengers of God who also taught that.

 

[Trailblazer]

Their Cause is "One"! Peace born out of the love of God.

The missions of the Manifestations of God (Messengers of God) are not the same.

“These Manifestations of God have each a twofold station. One is the station of pure abstraction and essential unity. In this respect, if thou callest them all by one name, and dost ascribe to them the same attributes, thou hast not erred from the truth. Even as He hath revealed: “No distinction do We make between any of His Messengers.” For they, one and all, summon the people of the earth to acknowledge the unity of God, and herald unto them the Kawthar of an infinite grace and bounty. They are all invested with the robe of prophethood, and are honored with the mantle of glory.....

The other station is the station of distinction, and pertaineth to the world of creation, and to the limitations thereof. In this respect, each Manifestation of God hath a distinct individuality, a definitely prescribed mission, a predestined revelation, and specially designated limitations. Each one of them is known by a different name, is characterized by a special attribute, fulfils a definite mission, and is entrusted with a particular Revelation.”

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 50-56

The mission of Baha'u'llah was to bring peace to earth, among other things, but that was not the mission of any other Messenger of God.

 

[The Hammer]

If it works for you.

Good.

Nothing else to add.

 

[CG Didymus]

I dont know what Tony has against it either. Thats why I asked. He talks about messengers promoting peace.

And the Bible is filled with stories of God's people going out and killing people. And God helps them win some of those battles. Then with others, because his people did something wrong, God helped the enemy win to teach them a lesson.

And unlike that other Baha'i thread about accepting the other religions... sometimes God had his prophet Elijah kill the prophets of another religion because that other religion wasn't true and evil and believed in false gods.

I posted this before I read that you bring it up also. I don't see anyone coming up with a reason why God would have his people go off and kill others prior to Jesus, but then from then on, God is all about peace.

But even in wars today the "good" guys always say that God helped them and is on their side against evil.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

People will always continue to quote this 'not peace but a sword' passage out of context.

Will they?
Do you think Christians will continue to fight in the holy war killing others in the name of Jesus?
Do you think they are wrong, and you are right?

The verse sounds like a verse in Jeremiah.

Jeremiah - No peace, sword:
Then said I, Ah, Lord God! surely thou hast greatly deceived this people and Jerusalem, saying, Ye shall have peace; whereas the sword reacheth unto the soul. Jeremiah 4:10

Jesus - No peace, sword:
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. Matthew 10:34

Sounds similar. With a difference being Jesus is not deceiving people like in according to Jeremiah. No peace, sword.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

This passage has been my life, but it is not because I do not Love them, it is because they rejected the faith I have embraced. I chose Love over rejection of God.

"If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple". Luke 14:26

Regards Tony

That sounds like the kind of love that kills others in the name of Jesus. No offence.

There is a Bahai text that I would like you to listen to very carefully Tony. It is written in the Kitab-i-Aqdas note 86.

"In the Aqdas Bahá’u’lláh has given death as the penalty for murder. However, He has permitted life imprisonment as an alternative. Both practices would be in accordance with His Laws. Some of us may not be able to grasp the wisdom of this when it disagrees with our own limited vision; but we must accept it, knowing His Wisdom, His Mercy and His Justice are perfect and for the salvation of the entire world".

Can you please tell me your honest opinion on what this fellow Bahai is saying.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

And the Bible is filled with stories of God's people going out and killing people. And God helps them win some of those battles. Then with others, because his people did something wrong, God helped the enemy win to teach them a lesson.

And unlike that other Baha'i thread about accepting the other religions... sometimes God had his prophet Elijah kill the prophets of another religion because that other religion wasn't true and evil and believed in false gods.

I posted this before I read that you bring it up also. I don't see anyone coming up with a reason why God would have his people go off and kill others prior to Jesus, but then from then on, God is all about peace.

But even in wars today the "good" guys always say that God helped them and is on their side against evil.

In all wars both sides are the good guys fighting against evil. God is with the good guy side that wins, and on the other side God is teaching the good guys some sort of lesson. Evil never loses.

If someone can think everything that happens is the will of God then they can do whatever they want. They can turn their own will into being God's will.

 

[Sumadji]

Will they?
Do you think Christians will continue to fight in the holy war killing others in the name of Jesus?
Do you think they are wrong, and you are right

That sounds like the kind of love that kills others in the name of Jesus. No offence.

I'm confused. Did Jesus advocate violence and killing, or did he not? According to your cherry-picking of Matthew 10?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

And the Bible is filled with stories of God's people going out and killing people. And God helps them win some of those battles. Then with others, because his people did something wrong, God helped the enemy win to teach them a lesson.

And unlike that other Baha'i thread about accepting the other religions... sometimes God had his prophet Elijah kill the prophets of another religion because that other religion wasn't true and evil and believed in false gods.

I posted this before I read that you bring it up also. I don't see anyone coming up with a reason why God would have his people go off and kill others prior to Jesus, but then from then on, God is all about peace.

But even in wars today the "good" guys always say that God helped them and is on their side against evil.

All in the way one reads the intent of the scriptures.

God's Law prohibited murder. So put two and tow together and it is logical these verses are not about literal killing.

Let the dead bury the dead is also a key in understanding all those verses.

But, you can all carry on as you wish, trying to impart violence to the Messengers, it it a tiring and unproductive attitude though, when they all brought naught but Love, Justice and Peace for us all.

The world needs to own their own ungodly choices.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

That sounds like the kind of love that kills others in the name of Jesus. No offence.

There is a Bahai text that I would like you to listen to very carefully Tony. It is written in the Kitab-i-Aqdas note 86.

"In the Aqdas Bahá’u’lláh has given death as the penalty for murder. However, He has permitted life imprisonment as an alternative. Both practices would be in accordance with His Laws. Some of us may not be able to grasp the wisdom of this when it disagrees with our own limited vision; but we must accept it, knowing His Wisdom, His Mercy and His Justice are perfect and for the salvation of the entire world".

Can you please tell me your honest opinion on what this fellow Bahai is saying.

That is a clarity on the law of proven Murder. If a person commits murder, and found guilty, the penalty given by society does not have to be death, life imprisonment is allowable.

Alao allowed is for the Universal House of Justice to enact and repeal other levels of penalty.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

God's Law prohibited murder. So put two and tow together and it is logical these verses are not about literal killing.

Well, that's good to know. Here all this time I thought the God had his people kill all the men, women and children in Jericho. And that he had Elijah kill all the prophets of Baal. And had David kill Goliath. And had Samson kill a bunch of Philistines. Oh, and that God closed the seas and drowned the Egyptian army.

So, it is the Baha'i belief that all the people killed by God or that God commanded his people to kill in the Bible were not literally killed. All those stories were symbolic?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Well, that's good to know. Here all this time I thought the God had his people kill all the men, women and children in Jericho. And that he had Elijah kill all the prophets of Baal. And had David kill Goliath. And had Samson kill a bunch of Philistines. Oh, and that God closed the seas and drowned the Egyptian army.

So, it is the Baha'i belief that all the people killed by God or that God commanded his people to kill in the Bible were not literally killed. All those stories were symbolic?

It may have been that the believers had to defend themselves? Who knows, the Babi did. Baha'u'llah removed this possibility by removing holy warfare from the book.

Regards Tony

 

[WonderingWorrier]

I'm confused. Did Jesus advocate violence and killing, or did he not? According to your cherry-picking of Matthew 10?

Why are you confused?
The OT is full of violence and Revelation isn't peaceful. Its war. Good vs evil.

Jesus says get a sword:
"Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one". Luke

"And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough". Luke.


And killing those that are considered as being evil:

"For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil". Romans.


So you are saying Jesus teaches peace. Do you think Christians killing in the name of Jesus are wrong?

Jesus teaches peace but he also teaches violence. They could be thinking they have to fight to get peace.

 

[Sumadji]

So you are saying Jesus teaches peace.

Yes. Except to those who prefer to cherry-pick quotes out of context. Reading the NT in context makes it clear.

Do you think Christians killing in the name of Jesus are wrong?

Yes. Of course

Jesus teaches peace but he also teaches violence

Nope

They could be thinking they have to fight to get peace.

Men have always abused the teaching of Christ as a cloak for violence and war

 

[WonderingWorrier]

That is a clarity on the law of proven Murder. If a person commits murder, and found guilty, the penalty given by society does not have to be death, life imprisonment is allowable.

No Tony. You are just twisting the words into a way that you are comfortable with. It is not a penalty given by society that Baha'u'llah provides an alternative to.

I said read it carefully. Read it again. This time I will highlight the death penalty given by Baha'u'llah and I will also include and highlight what is said next. It is an official Bahai reason why it is ok to kill innocent people.


"In the Aqdas Bahá’u’lláh has given death as the penalty for murder. However, He has permitted life imprisonment as an alternative. Both practices would be in accordance with His Laws. Some of us may not be able to grasp the wisdom of this when it disagrees with our own limited vision; but we must accept it, knowing His Wisdom, His Mercy and His Justice are perfect and for the salvation of the entire world.

If a man were falsely condemned to die, can we not believe Almighty God would compensate him a thousandfold, in the next world, for this human injustice? You cannot give up a salutary law just because on rare occasions the innocent may be punished".

Alao allowed is for the Universal House of Justice to enact and repeal other levels of penalty.

So the Universal House of Justice has the authority to remove that law of Baha'u'llah completely or add more to the list of reasons to kill people?

Arson is also included as worthy of the death penalty according to the law of Baha'u'llah.

"The law of Bahá’u’lláh prescribes the death penalty for murder and arson, with the alternative of life imprisonment". Note 86.

 

[Sumadji]

But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one".

To defend themselves when he was gone from them

And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough"

Enough for defence

For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil".

Paul is advising Christians to be obedient to civil authority. Read the whole passage. It is the civil authority that bears the sword.
Romans 13

Why do you keep cherry-picking?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

No Tony. You are just twisting the words into a way that you are comfortable with. It is not a penalty given by society that Baha'u'llah provides an alternative to.

I said read it carefully. Read it again. This time I will highlight the death penalty given by Baha'u'llah and I will also include and highlight what is said next. It is an official Bahai reason why it is ok to kill innocent people.


"In the Aqdas Bahá’u’lláh has given death as the penalty for murder. However, He has permitted life imprisonment as an alternative. Both practices would be in accordance with His Laws. Some of us may not be able to grasp the wisdom of this when it disagrees with our own limited vision; but we must accept it, knowing His Wisdom, His Mercy and His Justice are perfect and for the salvation of the entire world.

If a man were falsely condemned to die, can we not believe Almighty God would compensate him a thousandfold, in the next world, for this human injustice? You cannot give up a salutary law just because on rare occasions the innocent may be punished".

So the Universal House of Justice has the authority to remove that law of Baha'u'llah completely or add more to the list of reasons to kill people?

Arson is also included as worthy of the death penalty according to the law of Baha'u'llah.

"The law of Bahá’u’lláh prescribes the death penalty for murder and arson, with the alternative of life imprisonment". Note 86.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

Why do you keep cherry-picking?

Because that is how I learned to hear their language.

I read the bible from a neutral unbelieving position not questioning god. It was nonsense to me. But I kept coming across the same words being used in other nonsense so I started writing them down. I realised certain words were being grouped with other certain unrelated words. I then used a bible word search and created blocks of information of every time a certain word is mentioned (without double ups).

Listening to multiple blocks of information is how I learned to hear sentences. I listened to what they are doing with their words. I learned of the three groups of words before learning of the fourth. Then I learned of groups within these groups so the four was as twelve. I could then hear them speaking a 12 position structure of words.

The structure of words is the only reason I think what the bible says is true. Because I can hear how it is true. And I know sword as a word which is part of the structure. It is in a specific position.

I know when I say the word sword you cant hear what i am saying. You cant hear the word unless you know where it is. I could try to show you where it is if you want. Then you would be able to hear it and we could then talk about it.

 

[Sumadji]

Because that is how I learned to hear their language.

I read the bible from a neutral unbelieving position not questioning god. It was nonsense to me. But I kept coming across the same words being used in other nonsense so I started writing them down. I realised certain words were being grouped with other certain unrelated words. I then used a bible word search and created blocks of information of every time a certain word is mentioned (without double ups).

Listening to multiple blocks of information is how I learned to hear sentences. I listened to what they are doing with their words. I learned of the three groups of words before learning of the fourth. Then I learned of groups within these groups so the four was as twelve. I could then hear them speaking a 12 position structure of words.

The structure of words is the only reason I think what the bible says is true. Because I can hear how it is true. And I know sword as a word which is part of the structure. It is in a specific position.

I know when I say the word sword you cant hear what i am saying. You cant hear the word unless you know where it is. I could try to show you where it is if you want. Then you would be able to hear it and we could then talk about it.

All sorts of folks have been finding all sorts of codes in the Bible for millennia. Have you investigated the Kabalah?

Whatever, if your own code tells you Jesus Christ taught killing and violence, it's wrong, imo