True and False Prophets - Just and Honest Determination

[wellwisher]

The best way to tell the difference between true and false prophets is 20/20 hindsight. For example, the prophesy of the Russian Collusion Coup, run by the Swamp and Liberal Fake news, looked like a true prophesy for the first few years. While the truth and the true prophets appeared to be false prophets; up was down and down was up. It was only time that sorted this out. False prophets can come out fast and be seductive. The truth, like the sands of time, chugs along and appears weak, but eventually catches up, until we have 20/20 hindsight and the true prophets emerge and the false are exposed.

This is election season in the USA and false prophets are now dime a dozen; political adds, since false prophets only think their false prophesies need to appear to be true, for a few weeks or month. If they are successful and they gain power, they can cover their tracks and go down, even longer as true prophets, until time catches up.

False prophets are not just in religion. They are also common to secular society, science and even Atheism, since false prophets go beyond just religion, as defined by self serving Atheists. For example, how many Atheist false prophets have sold Socialism and Communism as paradise on earth, only for it to become hell on earth once implemented? These false prophets have led to some of the worse atrocities.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The best way to tell the difference between true and false prophets is 20/20 hindsight. For example, the prophesy of the Russian Collusion Coup, run by the Swamp and Liberal Fake news, looked like a true prophesy for the first few years. While the truth and the true prophets appeared to be false prophets; up was down and down was up. It was only time that sorted this out. False prophets can come out fast and be seductive. The truth, like the sands of time, chugs along and appears weak, but eventually catches up, until we have 20/20 hindsight and the true prophets emerge and the false are exposed.

This is election season in the USA and false prophets are now dime a dozen; political adds, since false prophets only think their false prophesies need to appear to be true, for a few weeks or month. If they are successful and they gain power, they can cover their tracks and go down, even longer as true prophets, until time catches up.

False prophets are not just in religion. They are also common to secular society, science and even Atheism, since false prophets go beyond just religion, as defined by self serving Atheists. For example, how many Atheist false prophets have sold Socialism and Communism as paradise on earth, only for it to become hell on earth once implemented? These false prophets have led to some of the worse atrocities.

That view could be quite valid.

In the end, false prophets are following their own self interests, over what is the best for all.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

It may have been that the believers had to defend themselves? Who knows, the Babi did. Baha'u'llah removed this possibility by removing holy warfare from the book.

Regards Tony

Well, here's how the Bible story goes.

​

Joshua 6:2 Then the Lord said to Joshua, “See, I have delivered Jericho into your hands, along with its king and its fighting men.​

​

6:20 When the trumpets sounded, the army shouted, and at the sound of the trumpet, when the men gave a loud shout, the wall collapsed; so everyone charged straight in, and they took the city. 21 They devoted the city to the Lord and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it—men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys.​

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Well, here's how the Bible story goes.

​

Joshua 6:2 Then the Lord said to Joshua, “See, I have delivered Jericho into your hands, along with its king and its fighting men.​

​

6:20 When the trumpets sounded, the army shouted, and at the sound of the trumpet, when the men gave a loud shout, the wall collapsed; so everyone charged straight in, and they took the city. 21 They devoted the city to the Lord and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it—men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys.​

I will not read that, as many would read that. How I read it, is using meanings I get from later scriptures.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

I will not read that, as many would read that. How I read it, is using meanings I get from later scriptures.

Regards Tony

Well, that's from the Bible. So, by later Scriptures do you mean the NT, Quran and the Baha'i writings?

I don't think so. The NT doesn't deny those battles mentioned in the Bible. Does the Quran? If so, tell what it says. And then, I'd say for sure you'd think that the Baha'i writings give you reasons to read that story differently. So, how do you read it?

 

[YoursTrue]

One has to back up any comment with a sound source of knowledge. It need not be Abrahamic Scriptures.

Regards Tony

What would you consider a sound source of knowledge?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So, how do you read it?

Not doing that again CG.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

What would you consider a sound source of knowledge?

That would be very subjective. Have to be discussed case by case.

Regards Tony

 

[Sumadji]

God's Law prohibited murder. So put two and two together and it is logical these verses are not about literal killing.

Well, here's how the Bible story goes.

​

Joshua 6:2 Then the Lord said to Joshua, “See, I have delivered Jericho into your hands, along with its king and its fighting men.​

​

6:20 When the trumpets sounded, the army shouted, and at the sound of the trumpet, when the men gave a loud shout, the wall collapsed; so everyone charged straight in, and they took the city. 21 They devoted the city to the Lord and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it—men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys.​

I will not read that, as many would read that. How I read it, is using meanings I get from later scriptures.

The ten commandments were tribal edicts designed to ensure the security and progress of the tribe. They did not apply to anyone outside the tribe. It was not murder to kill someone from another tribe and take their land and possessions.

Christ extended ‘love your neighbour’ beyond the tribe to all humanity, as in the parable of the good Samaritan.

Spoiler: The Good Samaritan

And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested him, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”

He said to him, “What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?”

So he answered and said, “ ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and ‘your neighbour as yourself.’ ”

And he said to him, “You have answered rightly; do this and you will live.”

But he, wanting to justify himself, said to Jesus, “And who is my neighbour?”

Then Jesus answered and said: “A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, who stripped him of his clothing, wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.

Now by chance a certain priest came down that road. And when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. Likewise a Levite, when he arrived at the place, came and looked, and passed by on the other side.

But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was. And when he saw him, he had compassion. So he went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine; and he set him on his own animal, brought him to an inn, and took care of him.

On the next day, when he departed, he took out two denarii, gave them to the innkeeper, and said to him, ‘Take care of him; and whatever more you spend, when I come again, I will repay you.’ So which of these three do you think was neighbour to him who fell among the thieves?”

And he said, “He who showed mercy on him.”

Then Jesus said to him, “Go and do likewise.”
Luke 10:25-37

So it’s just the way things were back in the day. The other tribes were the same, or worse, sacrificing their children in the fire to Baal. There’s no rewriting history, imo

 

[WonderingWorrier]

All sorts of folks have been finding all sorts of codes in the Bible for millennia. Have you investigated the Kabalah?

All sorts of folks begin with the belief that God is real, then search for ways to assure their faith. I didn't.
It is not a code. It is an understanding. Because every sentence is taken at face value being exactly as said.

Whatever, if your own code tells you Jesus Christ taught killing and violence, it's wrong, imo

Jesus did teach killing and violence. That is a fact. You can try to twist the words into something else but you cant deny the violent words are there. I wanted to know how you and @TransmutingSoul get around it. Are your peace explanations credible.

I know Jesus was trying to teach the violent words that are said in the OT. He was trying to teach people the OT language. But there was a problem. People couldn't hear what he was saying.

"Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word".

The problem is when explaining the OT nonsense it just sounds like more nonsense. Explaining the violent words sounds like more violence.

Its like a language that you cant tell anyone.

But some words were able to be learned by some: "Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue". Corinthians.

Words I know you cant hear.

For example are you able to explain this NT verse:

"Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days". James.

Can you specifically explain the gold and the silver, the rust, and the flesh as it was fire? Do you clearly know what he is talking about?

 

[Sumadji]

For example are you able to explain this NT verse:

Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days".

Can you specifically explain the gold and the silver, the rust, and the flesh as it was fire? Do you clearly know what he is talking about?

The material possessions that you lusted after at the cost of your own soul won't be of any use to you in the grave.

Jesus did teach killing and violence. That is a fact

@WonderingWorrier
For every out of context passage you try to manipulate to try to show Jesus Christ taught violence and killing, I can continue to show the full context, and then supply 20 passages for each one of your 'coded' ones where Christ, in context, taught against violence and killing.

But it wouldn't be any use, so I won't continue trying to debate with you

 

[WonderingWorrier]

The material possessions that you lusted after at the cost of your own soul won't be of any use to you in the grave.

Ok. I will try to show you my explanation of the full sentence.

I know Earthly silver and gold would be just iron. That is why their silver and gold is said to be rusty. And the flesh as it was fire is said in place of the brass. As in Brass, Silver, and Gold.

Observe the words of the sentence. They are very specific.

Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days.


I will further explain:

It is about the OT treasury of the Lord. As there are four metals - iron, brass, silver, and gold.

"But all the silver, and gold, and vessels of brass and iron, are consecrated unto the Lord: they shall come into the treasury of the Lord". Joshua


And the heaven that is above the Earth is the Brass. Iron is the Earth.

And thy heaven that is over thy head shall be brass, and the earth that is under thee shall be iron. Deuteronomy.

Brass, Silver, and Gold are as different heavens. Iron is the Earth.


Here the Bread is the flesh, and the wine is the blood:

Bread - Oil - Wine
Flesh - Bone - Blood
Brass - Silver - Gold

Flesh and Brass are words of the same place. The lowest heaven (called Hell).

I am trying to show you every word of the sentence is clear.

The Earthly gold and silver is as iron so that is why it is said to rust. And the flesh as fire part of the sentence is taking the place of the word brass.


Rust is in place of iron, and flesh is in place of brass. So the complete sentence is saying iron, brass, silver and gold. Treasure.

For every out of context passage you try to manipulate to try to show Jesus Christ taught violence and killing, I can continue to show the full context, and then supply 20 passages for each one of your 'coded' ones where Christ, in context, taught against violence and killing.

But it wouldn't be any use, so I won't continue trying to debate with you

If you think I am saying Jesus taught violence and killing then you didn't understand what I said.

 

[Sumadji]

If you think I am saying Jesus taught violence and killing then you didn't understand what I said.

Do you blame me?

Jesus did teach killing and violence. That is a fact

 

[YoursTrue]

That would be very subjective. Have to be discussed case by case.

Regards Tony

I'm not a betting person. Take care.

 

[Trailblazer]

The material possessions that you lusted after at the cost of your own soul won't be of any use to you in the grave.

How very true.

Matthew 6:19-21 Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal; but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

“The peoples of the world are fast asleep. Were they to wake from their slumber, they would hasten with eagerness unto God, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise. They would cast away everything they possess, be it all the treasures of the earth, that their Lord may remember them to the extent of addressing to them but one word.” (Gleanings, p. 137)

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 137-139

 

[Sumadji]

I know Jesus was trying to teach the violent words that are said in the OT. He was trying to teach people the OT language. But there was a problem. People couldn't hear what he was saying.

"Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word".

The problem is when explaining the OT nonsense it just sounds like more nonsense. Explaining the violent words sounds like more violence.

@WonderingWorrier

It's not easy to understand. Are you essentially saying that because Jesus taught (from) the OT Tanakh, and because there is violence and killing in the Tanakh -- that Jesus was teaching killing and violence?

But taken another step, that the killing and violence in the Tanakh is really some sort of code that means something else? And Jesus was trying to explain that?

Am I on the right track?

 

[CG Didymus]

And the Bible is filled with stories of God's people going out and killing people. And God helps them win some of those battles.

All in the way one reads the intent of the scriptures.

God's Law prohibited murder. So put two and tow together and it is logical these verses are not about literal killing.

Well, that's good to know. Here all this time I thought the God had his people kill all the men, women and children in Jericho.

It may have been that the believers had to defend themselves?

I has assumed you had read the Bible. God had his people go into the land of Canaan and conquer it.

Well, here's how the Bible story goes.
Joshua 6:2 Then the Lord said to Joshua, “See, I have delivered Jericho into your hands, along with its king and its fighting men.6:20 When the trumpets sounded, the army shouted, and at the sound of the trumpet, when the men gave a loud shout, the wall collapsed; so everyone charged straight in, and they took the city. 21 They devoted the city to the Lord and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it—men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys.

I will not read that, as many would read that. How I read it, is using meanings I get from later scriptures.

Which makes it ridiculous for Baha'is to claim they believe in the other major religions along with their Scriptures.

Well, that's from the Bible. So, by later Scriptures do you mean the NT, Quran and the Baha'i writings?

Not doing that again CG.

Not doing what again? Admitting that it doesn't matter what the Scriptures of the other religions say... What 's important to Baha'is is what the Baha'i Faith tells them what to believe about those other Scriptures.

Great, if you're a Baha'i. But you're telling believers in every other religion that they are completely wrong in how they interpret their own Scriptures. Going to be hard to find unity between you and them believing things like that.

I don't see that there is that much difference between someone telling them that their Scriptures aren't true, but fiction, and what the Baha'is are telling them.

The ten commandments were tribal edicts designed to ensure the security and progress of the tribe. They did not apply to anyone outside the tribe. It was not murder to kill someone from another tribe and take their land and possessions.

So it’s just the way things were back in the day. The other tribes were the same, or worse, sacrificing their children in the fire to Baal. There’s no rewriting history, imo

Yes, the neighboring tribes were their enemies. They were always fighting them. It's difficult to figure out how extreme Baha'is will go to give a Baha'i spin on everything. And then insist that is the true meaning?

 

[loverofhumanity]

But you know that what those other religions teach now is wrong?

So, now you do know what the original message was, and that it soon became distorted?

Again, we don't have the original teachings, so how do you know what was changed?

We are talking about ancient civilisations where we don’t even know who the Manifestation was. But in those religions where do we know Who they are and do have recorded scriptures then we know what was originally taught. Christ taught love. So Christians according to the law of love are one family yet because of man made doctrines they have forsaken the original teaching of love and based their religion on theological foundations not spiritual ones so we see them fragmented into over 40,000 groups. The Quran and Muhammad taught originally, peace but now we see that theology not peace has taken centre stage and they have entirely forgotten their original teachings.

Going back to ancient civilisations we do not know the original Manifestation or teachings. But latter religions we do and can see how the followers have departed from the spiritual teachings and virtues to follow theological ideas. So instead of love one another the mantra has become Christ is the greatest. Christ didn’t come to exalt Himself but to teach love and forgiveness.

 

[danieldemol]

So Christians according to the law of love are one family yet because of man made doctrines they have forsaken the original teaching of love and based their religion on theological foundations not spiritual ones so we see them fragmented into over 40,000 groups. The Quran and Muhammad taught originally, peace but now we see that theology not peace has taken centre stage and they have entirely forgotten their original teachings.

Going back to ancient civilisations we do not know the original Manifestation or teachings. But latter religions we do and can see how the followers have departed from the spiritual teachings and virtues to follow theological ideas. So instead of love one another the mantra has become Christ is the greatest. Christ didn’t come to exalt Himself but to teach love and forgiveness.

Thanks for admitting that theology is not a useful basis for "spirituality" which in this particular context you appear to define as the ability to get along in my view.

That being said such an admission is clearly self defeating if your intention is to promote Baha'i faith since many humans get along without the theology of Baha'u'llah, meanwhile Baha'i theologians cannot even agree on what constitutes a Covenant Breaker or the correct actions to take towards Covenant Breakers in my view.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

@WonderingWorrier

It's not easy to understand. Are you essentially saying that because Jesus taught (from) the OT Tanakh, and because there is violence and killing in the Tanakh -- that Jesus was teaching killing and violence?

But taken another step, that the killing and violence in the Tanakh is really some sort of code that means something else? And Jesus was trying to explain that?

Am I on the right track?

Yes. That is the line of thought. Thank you for understanding.

The "sort of code" is a law. The words in the OT are not speaking laws. The words in the OT are speaking according to the law. Jesus knew that and so it could seem he wasn't following OT said laws.

Imagine him telling the church that collecting silver and gold for their treasury of the lord is wrong. He tried to explain heavenly treasure is what the OT is saying. But that could mean no more silver and gold for the church.

"Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal.
But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal".

That verse in James we were looking at before is an example of speech that is correct according to the law. James was speaking of the treasury of the Lord OT verse. I know he could only say something like that by actually knowing the law. I tried to show you how his words are perfectly said.

He combined parts of different "laws" and spoke them in their right places so the actual law is still being said. Like Flesh is a perfectly acceptable substitute for Brass. The law didn't change.

Just like Jesus saying the bread is the flesh and the wine is the blood. Nothing has changed from the OT.

Bread - Oil - Wine
Flesh - Bone - Blood
Brass - Silver - Gold

Explaining the law saying "one word is a seemingly unrelated word" will sound like nonsense. People could interpret that as talking about some sort of magic.


The violence said in the OT is also according to the same law/code. I will show you an example in three verses about three things.

With lower places and higher places, we have swords, spears, and bows:
"Therefore set I in the lower places behind the wall, and on the higher places, I even set the people after their families with their swords, their spears, and their bows. Nehemiah".

Just like we have the sun, moon, and stars:
There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. Corinthians

Listen carefully. This not violent nonsense. This combines both of the above into one. It is according to the law:
The sun and moon stood still in their habitation: at the light of thine arrows they went, and at the shining of thy glittering spear. Habakkuk

The sun is as arrows (bow), and the moon is as spear:

Moon - Star - Sun
Spear - Sword - Bow

According to these three verses the sword is as star. Can you understand that?