True and False Prophets - Just and Honest Determination

[TransmutingSoul]

Not really. Even at the age of twelve Jesus was astounding the elders in the temple with his knowledge and wisdom:

So when they did not find him, they returned to Jerusalem, seeking him. Now so it was that after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the teachers, both listening to them and asking them questions. And all who heard him were astonished at his understanding and answers.
Luke 2:45-47

I hope you realise that the Bab and Baha'u'llah likewise were extraordinary children showing a knowledge and reverence to God while still only infants. Likewise, they too astounded everyone with their knowledge, even though not schooled in religious studies.

That did not stop those that persecuted Jesus, the Bab and Baha'u'llah , calling them ignorant. It has not stopped people in this age doing the same thing.

Regards Tony

 

[Sumadji]

I hope you realise that the Bab and Baha'u'llah likewise were extraordinary children showing a knowledge and reverence to God while still only infants. Likewise, they too astounded everyone with their knowledge, even though not schooled in religious studies.

That did not stop those that persecuted Jesus, the Bab and Baha'u'llah , calling them ignorant. It has not stopped people in this age doing the same thing.

Regards Tony

I do believe the Bab and Baha'u'llah were good and holy men. I believe they were strong and charismatic leaders. I believe they were brave and magnetic persons.

I do not believe that Baha'u'llah is entitled to claim the station of the unique and only messenger of God for the millennium until the next messenger arrives.

I believe that is mission creep. However I do think Baha'u'llah genuinely did believe that of himself.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

This is rubbish. The verse in context clearly shows that Jesus was talking about how those who followed the spirit would be cut-off from those who followed the material, causing rifts in families. It's so boring that folks keep bringing up this verse out-of-context to try to show Jesus Christ as supporting violence and killing.

Do you think Jesus didn't mean what he says?
You are twisting the words making "sword" to simply mean "cut-off".
Thats rubbish.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

I don't know what Tony has against killing in the name of Jesus, but I know I'm firmly against such religious lunacy as it is a cause of demonstrable harm in my view

I dont know what Tony has against it either. Thats why I asked. He talks about messengers promoting peace.

 

[Sumadji]

Do you think Jesus didn't mean what he says?
You are twisting the words making "sword" to simply mean "cut-off".
Thats rubbish.

Sword can mean a lot of things, depending on the context. In the context of Matthew 10: 35 it's clear Christ is using it to mean division in families caused by those who choose to follow the way of spirit rather than to follow the way of the material world of mammon.

You can make scripture say whatever you want by taking passages out-of-context. Of course Christ did not support violence and killing. Give it up. It's tiresome, man

 

[WonderingWorrier]

I see you are misunderstanding the essence of that verse, then state your opinions, twisting them, trying to impart them to me.

Jesus taught peace. The result of not accepting that, manifests in this world as in Matthew 10:34, a result of men's choices not to follow Jesus.

Regards Tony

You are saying messengers promote peace. But the Bible is full of violence. And you are twisting the sword that Jesus sends into something that happens when people don't follow Jesus.

If you actually listened and understood what I have been saying before then you would know my opinion on the subject.

"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword".

Don't think peace, think sword.

The "sword" is mentioned 404 times in the Bible.

Every time the sword is mentioned it speaks of a specific position.

Spear - Sword - Bow
Corn - Olive - Grape
Bread - Oil - Wine

Like the sword is as the olive branch. It is the middle ground.

 

[Sumadji]

You are saying messengers promote peace. But the Bible is full of violence. And you are twisting the sword that Jesus sends into something that happens when people don't follow Jesus.

If you actually listened and understood what I have been saying before then you would know my opinion on the subject.

"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword".

Don't think peace, think sword.

The "sword" is mentioned 404 times in the Bible.

Every time the sword is mentioned it speaks of a specific position.

Spear - Sword - Bow
Corn - Olive - Grape
Bread - Oil - Wine

Like the sword is as the olive branch. It is the middle ground.

Now brother will deliver up brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death. And you will be hated by all for my name’s sake ...

Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. For I have come to ‘set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law’; and ‘a man’s enemies will be those of his own household.’

He who loves father or mother more than me is not worthy me. And he who loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And he who does not take his cross and follow after me is not worthy of me. He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for my sake will find it
Matthew 10

 

[WonderingWorrier]

You can make scripture say whatever you want by taking passages out-of-context. Of course Christ did not support violence and killing. Give it up. It's tiresome, man

You can make scripture say whatever you want by changing the words. Like changing "sword" into "cut off".

Sword can mean a lot of things

Can mean lots of different things? Like whatever you want?

Lets take a closer look at your sword meaning cut-off. So does that meaning apply for every time the word sword is mentioned throughout the bible, or just that once?

Is Jesus talking about the OT word sword or is it unrelated and he is just using it the one time to mean "cut-off"?

The 404 times the word sword is mentioned in the Bible is my context.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

Now brother will deliver up brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death. And you will be hated by all for my name’s sake ...

Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword. For I have come to ‘set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law’; and ‘a man’s enemies will be those of his own household.’

He who loves father or mother more than me is not worthy me. And he who loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And he who does not take his cross and follow after me is not worthy of me. He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for my sake will find it
Matthew 10

But:
"If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple". Luke 14:26

So Jesus clearly teaches violence and hatred, not just peace and love.

You cant understand one without also understanding the other.

To know both good and evil.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

But:
"If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple". Luke 14:26

So Jesus clearly teaches violence and hatred, not just peace and love.

You cant understand one without also understanding the other.

To know both good and evil.

With Jesus teaching naught but the apex of Love, all other possibilities become manifested in this world of opposites and these are reflected in the Word given of Jesus. They are the consequences that unfold with a person that has chosen Love.

This passage has been my life, but it is not because I do not Love them, it is because they rejected the faith I have embraced. I chose Love over rejection of God.

"If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple". Luke 14:26

Regards Tony

 

[Sumadji]

But:
"If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple". Luke 14:26

So Jesus clearly teaches violence and hatred, not just peace and love.

You cant understand one without also understanding the other.

To know both good and evil.

People will always continue to quote this 'not peace but a sword' passage out of context. I linked the entire chapter for the context.
Matthew 10

Read it, or don't read it

 

[Trailblazer]

I see you are misunderstanding the essence of that verse, then state your opinions, twisting them, trying to impart them to me.

Jesus taught peace. The result of not accepting that, manifests in this world as in Matthew 10:34, a result of men's choices not to follow Jesus.

Regards Tony

Jesus did not teach peace, nor did he come to bring peace. That is what Baha'u'llah taught and brought.

Matthew 10:34 NIV Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.

In other words, Jesus' message will naturally create division; this "sword" will divide the world into those who believe in Him and those who do not. His arrival will bring great conflict as those who reject Jesus as the Messiah and Son of God will turn in hatred against those who hear and believe (1 Peter 4:3–4; John 15:18–21), including the members of one's own family.

What does Matthew 10:34 mean? | BibleRef.com

Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. - What is the meaning of Matthew 10:34?

www.bibleref.com

Luke 12:53 NIV They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law.

In other words, Jesus' message will naturally create division; this "sword" will divide the world into those who believe in Him and those who do not. His arrival will bring great conflict as those who reject Jesus as the Messiah and Son of God will turn in hatred against those who hear and believe (1 Peter 4:3–4; John 15:18–21), including the members of one's own family.

What does Luke 12:53 mean? | BibleRef.com

They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law.' - What is the meaning of Luke 12:53?

www.bibleref.com

 

[Sumadji]

Jesus did not teach peace, nor did he come to bring peace.

Jesus taught inner peace. He wasn't interested in spreading false stories about peace on earth.

The Buddha taught: Freedom from desire leads to inner peace. It is the heart

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Jesus did not teach peace, nor did he come to bring peace. That is what Baha'u'llah taught and brought.

Matthew 10:34 NIV Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.

In other words, Jesus' message will naturally create division; this "sword" will divide the world into those who believe in Him and those who do not. His arrival will bring great conflict as those who reject Jesus as the Messiah and Son of God will turn in hatred against those who hear and believe (1 Peter 4:3–4; John 15:18–21), including the members of one's own family.

What does Matthew 10:34 mean? | BibleRef.com

Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. - What is the meaning of Matthew 10:34?

www.bibleref.com

Luke 12:53 NIV They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law.

In other words, Jesus' message will naturally create division; this "sword" will divide the worlMatthew 5:9 ~ Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. John 14:27 ~ Peace I leave with you; my peace I give to you. Not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your hearts be troubled, neither let them be afraidd into those who believe in Him and those who do not. His arrival will bring great conflict as those who reject Jesus as the Messiah and Son of God will turn in hatred against those who hear and believe (1 Peter 4:3–4; John 15:18–21), including the members of one's own family.

What does Luke 12:53 mean? | BibleRef.com

They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law.' - What is the meaning of Luke 12:53?

www.bibleref.com

The Message of Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah likewise brings the sword.

The Word is the sword in every Revelation.

Examples what jesus Offered

Matthew 5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.

John 14:27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give to you. Not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your hearts be troubled, neither let them be afraid.

Romans 12:18 ~ If possible, so far as it depends on you, live peaceably with all.

Colossians 3:15 ~ And let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body. And be thankful

So, just as the Message of Baha’u’llah calls us to Peace, the Message suited to our age, Jesus also called us to peace.

The Word records the consequences of our rejection of that peace, just as is found in the Words given by Jesus, so we will find it in the Words given by Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah and then in the explanations given by Abdul'baha and Shoghi Effendi.

Jesus knew it would be centuries before humanity would start to find the Peace that He had offered. Muhammad knew the United tribes would not bring global peace, the Bab and Baha'u'llah also knew it would still take centuries.

I see it in this light.

".....Even as He hath revealed: “No distinction do We make between any of His Messengers.” For they, one and all, summon the people of the earth to acknowledge the unity of God, and herald unto them the Kawthar of an infinite grace and bounty. They are all invested with the robe of prophethood, and are honored with the mantle of glory. Thus hath Muhammad, the Point of the Qur’án, revealed: “I am all the Prophets.” Likewise, He saith: “I am the first Adam, Noah, Moses, and Jesus.” Similar statements have been made by Imám ‘Alí. Sayings such as these, which indicate the essential unity of those Exponents of Oneness, have also emanated from the Channels of God’s immortal utterance, and the Treasuries of the gems of Divine knowledge, and have been recorded in the Scriptures. These Countenances are the recipients of the Divine Command, and the Daysprings of His Revelation. This Revelation is exalted above the veils of plurality and the exigencies of number. Thus He saith: “Our Cause is but One.” Inasmuch as the Cause is one and the same, the Exponents thereof also must needs be one and the same. Likewise, the Imáms of the Muhammadan Faith, those lamps of certitude, have said: “Muhammad is our first, Muhammad is our last, Muhammad our all..."

Their Cause is "One"! Peace born out of the love of God.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Jesus taught inner peace. He wasn't interested in spreading false stories about peace on earth.

The Buddha taught: Freedom from desire leads to inner peace. It is the heart

"Thy Kingdom come, Thy Will be done, on earth as it is heaven".

I ponder how many times that has been asked since the prayer was given?

Regards Tony

 

[Sumadji]

Thy Will be done, on earth as it is heaven".

Thy will not my will, even though you slay me. Still do I love thee. Show me the way

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Thy will not my will, even though you slay me. Still do I love thee. Show me the way

Thus if God's Will is done on earth as it is in Heaven, in each of us, by our choice of embracing that Will, then we will have peace.

It is the most simple prayer for peace, that all submit to God's Will. It is my daily prayer for all humanity, for my wife, my children, my parents, relatives and own self.

Regards Tony

 

[The Hammer]

One has to back up any comment with a sound source of knowledge. It need not be Abrahamic Scriptures.

Regards Tony

So does Pagan myth work? That is a sound Source of knowledge right?

 

[Sumadji]

It is the most simple prayer for peace, that all submit to God's Will

And it's a futile prayer because it will always be the few who choose the narrow road. I believe God responds to sensible prayers

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So does Pagan myth work? That is a sound Source of knowledge right?

If it works for you. I personally see that God gave guidance to all nations and all peoples in one way or another.

In the end, it is the teachings that bring forth fruits that are a sign of divine origin.

In the future, I see time and effort will be put in to try to determine the ancient sources of God given truth.

Regards Tony