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True and False Prophets - Just and Honest Determination

WonderingWorrier

Active Member
I see the connection is Islam one of the greatest civilisations on earth.
Connecting Islam to great nation wasn't my question. Connecting twelve Imams is the question. I want you to tell me if there is any connection to the twelve princes being the twelve imams besides a single verse you are showing me which has the number twelve in it. Thats why I asked you about the given names of the twelve princes wondering if you had in any way connected them as you are saying the twelve princes are the twelve imams.

Is the number twelve in the Bible verse your only connection to the twelve princes being a reference to the twelve Imams?
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
So why would you think that one time the Sun and Moon is mentioned it is talking about the Persian and Ottoman empires?

Is the only reason you can think so is because you are told so?
Once you read the explanation and see it as valid, that it is as plain as the midday sun, then it becomes something seen as self evident.

Likewise when I read the Bible, I look behind the story at the meaning of the words.

Christianity has long held this as referring to Jesus, Isaiah 9:6-7 "For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Of the greatness of his government and peace there will be no end."

Yet when one sees it as a reference to Baha'u'llah, that vision is then embraced.

Regards Tony
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
Connecting Islam to great nation wasn't my question. Connecting twelve Imams is the question. I want you to tell me if there is any connection to the twelve princes being the twelve imams besides a single verse you are showing me which has the number twelve in it. Thats why I asked you about the given names of the twelve princes wondering if you had in any way connected them as you are saying the twelve princes are the twelve imams.

Is the number twelve in the Bible verse your only connection to the twelve princes being a reference to the twelve Imams?
It’s a spiritual connection. I believe the twelve princes refer to twelve spiritual leaders - thus the twelve Imams and that the ‘great nation’ referred to again is a spiritual great civilisation which I believe to be Islam. It’s not about earthly names and designations but all about a spiritual reality and blessing Ishmael was promised by God and God founds religions man founds nations. Matching that verse with known religious history to me is a moot point as clear as day because the Bible is about spiritual things.

And to demonstrate it is about spiritual matters let’s take the seven days of creation. Scientific proof exists showing the earth is some 4.5 billion years old which makes the Biblical claim look ridiculous as the Bible teaches one day is equal to a thousand years so the world is 7,000 years old? But there is a spiritual perspective which is brilliant and when viewed from that standpoint, the story of creation is one of the most profound but misunderstood concepts that nobody has deeply thought about.

Do people think that the Bible completely left out Islam which is one of the most influential civilisations in human history?it’s amazing that on the one hand Christians claim how profound the Bible is yet think it has not mentioned one of the greatest religions on earth. Amazing and at the same time perplexing just how little, after 2,000 years Christians understand the Bible.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Once you read the explanation and see it as valid, that it is as plain as the midday sun, then it becomes something seen as self evident. ..
Likewise when I read the Bible, I look behind the story at the meaning of the words. ..
Yet when one sees it as a reference to Baha'u'llah, that vision is then embraced.
Christians, Muslims and now Bahais hold many views without any evidence. Christians quote from OT, Muslims quote from OT and NT, and Bahais quote from All, OT, NT and Qur'an. Even Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of the Ahmadiyya sect which considers itself a part of Islam also did that. This plagiarism has been going on for 2,000 years. That does not make false stories true. There is no evidence for existence of God, so the question of prophets/sons/messengers/manifestations/mahdis does not arise.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
Connecting Islam to great nation wasn't my question. Connecting twelve Imams is the question. I want you to tell me if there is any connection to the twelve princes being the twelve imams besides a single verse you are showing me which has the number twelve in it. Thats why I asked you about the given names of the twelve princes wondering if you had in any way connected them as you are saying the twelve princes are the twelve imams.

Is the number twelve in the Bible verse your only connection to the twelve princes being a reference to the twelve Imams?
WonderingWorrier, do not seek meaning in what is written in scriptures. Like the oracles of Greek, they never talk clearly.
The meaning is given by those who follow different religions. Christians will have their own meaning, Muslims will have their meaning and Bahais will have their's. Really, there is no meaning at all. These are just rants and Bahaollah can claim to have the most. No one ranted like Bahaollah did. Bahais say that there are 17,000 more which have not yet been translated.

Muhammad did not rant. Allah gave him clear and timely instructions, like when he has marrying Zaynab bint Jahsh or when he had vowed to abstain from sex.
 
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WonderingWorrier

Active Member
It’s a spiritual connection. I believe the twelve princes refer to twelve spiritual leaders - thus the twelve Imams
Ok. That could be the reason why you are having that problem you were talking about.

The problem is no matter how much proof we give, people deliberately turn away from it then make up some other excuse to deny the truth.
Your explanation of the truth has unexplained spiritual connections. That is why your proof doesn't work.


And to demonstrate it is about spiritual matters let’s take the seven days of creation. Scientific proof exists showing the earth is some 4.5 billion years old which makes the Biblical claim look ridiculous as the Bible teaches one day is equal to a thousand years so the world is 7,000 years old?

You have demonstrated that if you take a couple of bible verses and then add them together you get 7000 years. So a verse in the bible teaches a day is as a thousand years. Could that possibly simply mean a day is a lot more than just a day?

Like here a metal is more than just a metal.

Here it says the Earth is as Iron and the Heaven above it is as Brass:
"And thy heaven that is over thy head shall be brass, and the earth that is under thee shall be iron". Deuteronomy.


And see this law of metals commanded to Moses:
And Eleazar the priest said unto the men of war which went to the battle, This is the ordinance of the law which the Lord commanded Moses;
Only the gold, and the silver, the brass, the iron, the tin, and the lead, Numbers.


So in two verses I am able to show you the Earth and the Heavens was made in six metals.

From lead up to Gold:

Lead - Tin - Iron - Brass - Silver - Gold

We can clearly see where the Earth is located as Iron.



The Bible talks about a day of rest, and it also talks about a place of rest.

Thus saith the Lord, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest? Isaiah

I showed where the house is earlier:

There are palaces in paradise. And there are tents in hell. Between them is the "house" of God.

"And (silver) doors to their houses, and thrones (of silver) on which they could recline".

Brass - Silver - Gold
Tent - House - Palace

So as you can see the Earth and the Heavens was made in six metals and there is a place of rest. A day can be more than just a day.
 

WonderingWorrier

Active Member
Once you read the explanation and see it as valid, that it is as plain as the midday sun
Do you think the explanation of the Sun having many different meanings is what makes it valid? In one verse the Sun specifically means the Persian empire but in other verses the Sun has different meanings. And that is what validates the Sun is the Persian empire?
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Do you think the explanation of the Sun having many different meanings is what makes it valid? In one verse the Sun specifically means the Persian empire but in other verses the Sun has different meanings. And that is what validates the Sun is the Persian empire?
I think you need to come to your own understanding on these issues.

Regards Tony
 

WonderingWorrier

Active Member
I think you need to come to your own understanding on these issues.

Regards Tony

I have an understanding every time the Sun is mentioned in the Bible it is speaking of exactly the same thing. To those who don't know exactly what the same thing is will think of different things.

A Sun with many different meanings can never be proven. A Sun with one meaning can.


Sun is a word of a specific position. I can show you the sun like I showed you the mountains as wool.

Cattle - Goat - Sheep
Desert - Wilderness - Mountain
Moon - Star - Sun

And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. Revelation.

Sheep is the same as the Sun.

Cattle - Goat - Sheep
Desert - Wilderness - Mountain
Moon - Star - Sun

Just like Bow/Arrow is as the Sun (and the moon is as the spear).

The sun and moon stood still in their habitation: at the light of thine arrows they went, and at the shining of thy glittering spear. Habakkuk.

Cattle - Goat - Sheep
Desert - Wilderness - Mountain
Moon - Star - Sun
Spear - Sword - Bow


Sun shares a position with many other words. That doesn't mean the Sun means many different things. It means the many things are as one thing.
 

WonderingWorrier

Active Member
WonderingWorrier, do not seek meaning in what is written in scriptures. Like the oracles of Greek, they never talk clearly.

They speak very clearly. All you have to do is listen to them teaching you where to put the words.

I can listen to stuff like this: "Then will I make their waters deep, and cause their rivers to run like oil, saith the Lord God"

And I hear it loud and clear. I know where to put it.

Valley - Hill - Mountain
Sea - River - Stream
Bread - Oil - Wine

That is why the Bible talks about the wine in the mountains, and the corn in the valleys. The different words are in different positions of height. That is why the river is as oil. The words are in the same position.

These are just rants and Bahaollah can claim to have the most. No one ranted like Bahaollah did. Bahais say that there are 17,000 more which have not yet been translated.

Seems strange after all these years they still haven't been translated yet. I would have thought that would have been very high on the Bahai priority list of things to do.

I would like to see if Baha'u'llah can put two or more words together in a sentence. He speaks in single symbol sentences.

He doesn't know where to put his words.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
I can listen to stuff like this: "Then will I make their waters deep, and cause their rivers to run like oil, saith the Lord God"
Bread - Oil - Wine

He doesn't know where to put his words.
Funny is the only word that I can use for your example. Oil is bread/wine? Give whatever silly meaning to words in Bible.
And your Lord God knew his words? Oil/bread/wine, wine in mountains and corn in valleys!
 

WonderingWorrier

Active Member
Funny is the only word that I can use for your example. Oil is bread/wine? Give whatever silly meaning to words in Bible.
And your Lord God knew his words? Oil/bread/wine, wine in mountains and corn in valleys!

Yeah it could sound funny to you because you cant hear the words. You cant hear the words because you don't know where to put them. When you know where the words go then you can hear them. When sense is made the nonsense is no longer funny.

I can show you very clear bible evidence.

Evidence that you cant hear the words:
"Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word". John

And further evidence of not being able to hear the specific three words corn, oil, and wine:
"And the earth shall hear the corn, and the wine, and the oil; and they shall hear Jezreel". Hosea.


I will show you where to put those words.

The Oil isn't bread/wine like you said. Bread, Oil, and Wine are as three separate things/words. But just as Corn (Grain) is for Bread, Olive is for Oil, and Grape is for Wine there are other connected words to the three separate things. And more words are connected to the three separate words like fields of corn for bread, and oliveyards of olive trees for oil, and vineyards of grapes for wine.

"And he will take your fields, and your vineyards, and your oliveyards, even the best of them, and give them to his servants".

So it looks like this word structure:

Bread - Oil - Wine
Corn - Olive - Grape
Field - Oliveyard - Vineyard

The three separate words can be seen as horizontal and you can also see their connection by vertical. Each word is in its correct place.

Now here it might start sounding funny. Please try to focus.



Here we can see the valley, hill, and mountain and also the sea, the river and the stream.

And the Lord shall utterly destroy the tongue of the Egyptian sea; and with his mighty wind shall he shake his hand over the river, and shall smite it in the seven streams, and make men go over dryshod. Isaiah

And say, Ye mountains of Israel, hear the word of the Lord God; Thus saith the Lord God to the mountains, and to the hills, to the rivers, and to the valleys; Behold, I, even I, will bring a sword upon you, and I will destroy your high places. Ezekiel.


They are two sets of three separate words. Being words at three different levels of height.

Like this:

Sea - River - Stream
Valley - Hill - Mountain

Now for the funny part. Putting it all together.

Bread - Oil - Wine
Corn - Olive - Grape
Field - Oliveyard - Vineyard
Sea - River - Stream
Valley - Hill - Mountain

So we can clearly understand:

The valleys are covered in corn:
The pastures are clothed with flocks; the valleys also are covered over with corn; they shout for joy, they also sing. Psalm.

The river is as oil:
Then will I make their waters deep, and cause their rivers to run like oil, saith the Lord God. Ezekiel

The mountains of wine:
Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that the plowman shall overtake the reaper, and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed; and the mountains shall drop sweet wine, and all the hills shall melt.


Look down the three verticals:

Bread - Oil - Wine
Corn
- Olive - Grape
Field - Oliveyard - Vineyard
Sea - River - Stream
Valley - Hill - Mountain

I am showing in bold there is corn in valley, oil as river, and wine in the place of mountain.

So can you understand the unheard words corn (bread) oil, and wine are as three different positions in three different levels of height?

If you can understand this concept of word placement I can show the whole bible works like this and we might be able to have a serious conversation about some really crazy bible nonsense. People don't know how in the bible a word can jump to a seemingly unrelated word in a sentence. They call it magic or nonsense.
 

WonderingWorrier

Active Member
I do not need any God or son. I am doing fine without them.

How do you know? You don't even know what a Son of God is. Because you don't know where to put the words. You could consider the evidence that I have shown and face facts. So consider being in line with what I told you before I will show you the children of God are as the olive trees and the wife of God is as the grape vine.

Here:

"Thy wife shall be as a fruitful vine by the sides of thine house: thy children like olive plants round about thy table". Psalm.

Children of God are in olive tree/oil position, and wife of God is in grape vine/wine position.


I can also show you in the vertical alignment of the word structure the word sheep is in the same placement as wine (and wife).

Bread - Oil - Wine
Corn - Olive - Grape
Field - Oliveyard - Vineyard
Sea - River - Stream
Valley - Hill - Mountain
Cattle - Goat - Sheep


So you can listen to this nonsense:
"Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready". Revelation.

And maybe you can hear the term "marriage of the lamb" makes perfect sense because the word wife is put with the word wine, where the word sheep is. It is simply a combination of some high level position words.
 

WonderingWorrier

Active Member
The lamb never married till even when he was 33, Mary must have been very annoyed. People wonder why?
Nice try but that doesn't work. There is a very clear difference between vague nonsense and very specific nonsense.
Specific nonsense can be objectively examined and scientifically tested.
 

WonderingWorrier

Active Member
It may be pointing to
It may is not it is.

It may be the marriage of the lamb is God lawful permission for a man to have relations with livestock.

But I know every time the word sheep is mentioned all throughout the Bible it clearly speaks only of one thing. Its position along with other words. A position that can be verified by the whole Bible. The bible prophets speak a twelve position structure with their words. Its like a Zodiac wheel. It is as a map of the heavens but I dont know if it has anything to do with star constellations. It could be possible ancient people misinterpreted scriptures and started playing connect the dots in the stars which they thought were the heavens above.
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
It may be the marriage of the lamb is God lawful permission for a man to have relations with livestock.
Really! Do you think so? I heard bestiality was forbidden in Jewish law. Is it not so in Christian law?
"All who came before Mea were thieves and robbers .." Abraham, Moses and other prophets? Over-arching generalization, I think.
 
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