I believe there are many references in the Bible regarding Muhammad and Islam.
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True and False Prophets - Just and Honest Determination
- Thread starter TransmutingSoul
- Start date
WonderingWorrier
Active Member
Can you explain your line of thought. Do you believe but don't actually know so are unable to show? Do you assume there are many references in the Bible regarding Muhammad and Islam because you feel they must be somehow connected without knowing how?
Are you actually able to show multiple references and clarify the connections, or not?
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Did you "see" it before you were told it?
Many?
I don't believe any of the references that Baha'is believe in. One of them, the Two Witnesses... Baha'is say that is Muhammad and Ali. Another one, The Three Woes... Baha'is claim the first Woe is Muhammad, the second is the Bab and the third is Baha'u'llah.
Those two are the ones I hear from Baha'is all the time. And, as I recall, they came from Abdul Baha. If he hadn't told Baha'is that is what those verses were talking about, I doubt any Baha'i would have ever thought that was the correct interpretation.
But Abdul Baha' did tell them. And so Baha'is believe that is absolutely the correct interpretation. By reading the context, I don't agree with them.
But what do you and Muffled think?
WonderingWorrier
Active Member
I do agree with @loverofhumanity on the below statement:
When @TransmutingSoul asked me about Muhammad I was able to show from what I have already explained of the Bible in this thread can also be applied to explain what Muhammad is saying. I don't jump to conclusion. I can show steps to reach the conclusion that there are many references in the Bible regarding Muhammad and Islam.
I showed him multiple different Quran references and clarified them with their vertical connection in bold within the Bible word structure. And I can show more.
I am wanting to know how the line of thought of @loverofhumanity connects Muhammad and Islam to the Bible. The in between was not explained. A belief based on assumption can never be proven. But a belief based on knowledge can with references and clarifying the connections. If the connecting of the Bible and Muhammad is only by assumption then it is only by the assumption that Baha'u'llah is truthful.
Yes I can confirm that there are numerous prophecies regarding Muhammad and Islam both Sunni and Shiah in the Book of Revelation, the Gospels, and the Torah. But people refuse to accept it so I’m not wasting time arguing with them. I know for sure 100% and it’s good enough for me. Others can believe what they like or their clergy tell them.
WonderingWorrier
Active Member
I do accept what you are saying. I want you to show me how you got there. 100%.
Show me. I will try to keep an open mind and listen carefully.
Ok. For now just to keep it brief I will mention one prophecy Only.
It is well known among the Arabs that Muhammad was a descendent of Ishmael. You can research this yourself in more depth.
Ancestry of Prophet Muhammad
Prophet Muhammad belonged to the generation of Prophet Ishmael (Ismail) , usually called Banu Ismail (Children of Ishmael). One of the sons of Prophet Ishmael was Qaidar (Kedar), in whose progeny a man named Adnan emerged to prominence, who was the ancestor of Adnanites tribes of Arabia. 6 Prophet Muhammad belonged to the Quraysh branch of Adnanites.Genesis 17:20
20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.
Muhammad was a descendant of Ishmael and the twelve princes were spiritual princes which we believe are the Twelve Imams and the great nation a spiritual nation is we believe to be Islam. So the Shiah sect of Islam which was descended from the Prophet is considered true Islam.
Now we are told that there are about 72 meanings in the scriptures and humanity is only aware of maybe one so although the above verse may be interpreted with other legitimate meanings, we believe one of the meanings is referring to Muhammad and the Twelve Imams.
There are many more scriptures which even more cogently refer to Muhammad and Islam but one needs to know a little about the history of Islam to understand.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
And how can you confirm it? Because it says so in the Baha'i writings? I mentioned two... Muhammad being the first of the three Woes and that he was one of the two witnesses. And those are only "confirmed" in the Baha'i writings. I wonder.... Do Muslims agree with you about that? I'm pretty sure Christians don't.
And where are these historical records showing the direct line of ancestors leading from Ishmael, how many thousands of years ago, to Muhammad? But of course there must be... Baha'is just wouldn't be making things up. So, what's the link to where these records can be found?
Well I’d place my trust in Baha’u’llah rather than anyone else. Woes are to the ungodly and worldly. Actually the Quran states that Muhammad was prophesied in the Bible. The problem is no matter how much proof we give, people deliberately turn away from it then make up some other excuse to deny the truth. We have told the truth and it is only for the benefit of others, we get nothing.
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Awesome and many thanks Tony.
WonderingWorrier
Active Member
Saying the Quran and the Bible has about 72 different meanings makes it complicated. That would mean there isn't a true correct meaning. It sounds like what someone would say if they needed to co-exist surrounded by bigger sects that don't share the same interpretation. To be right you would have to be able to show there are around 72 different meanings and what you are saying is one of them.
So you have Muhammad and Islam connected with the Bible by a verse of Genesis that says Ishmael and twelve princes and a great nation. Muhammad is Ishmael and the twelve princes are the twelve Imams.
Here we have the names of the twelve princes of Ishmael:
"And these are the names of the sons of Ishmael, by their names, according to their generations: the firstborn of Ishmael, Nebajoth; and Kedar, and Adbeel, and Mibsam, And Mishma, and Dumah, and Massa, Hadar, and Tema, Jetur, Naphish, and Kedemah:
These are the sons of Ishmael, and these are their names, by their towns, and by their castles; twelve princes according to their nations".
Did you connect all of these names to twelve Imams?
As I explained people are free to reject these things. Thats why I didn’t really want to go into it because people have their fixed views. The names of the Imams can be found anywhere online. Just viewing material events only has its limitations. The richness of the Bible is that it foretells with uncanny accuracy, spiritual events.
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WonderingWorrier
Active Member
I am not rejecting what you are saying. My views are not fixed. I had a simple question on your steps.
Can you answer the question. Did you also connect the given names of the twelve princes of Ishmael to twelve Imams?
You are telling me the twelve princes are twelve Imams.
Yes I’m saying that the twelve princes are a reference to the twelve imams of Shiah Islam, the great nation referred to being Islam.
Please note I’m not a Muslim.
The Baha'i knowledge of Muhammad in the Bible was given by the explanations that Abdu'l-Baha gave in a book called Some Answered Questions. Abdu'l-Baha gave detailed interpretation of both Revelation Chapter 11 and Revelation chapter 12.
To fully understand these Interpretations, there is this prerequisite.
Rational Proofs and Traditional Arguments from the Sacred Scriptures
And Abdu'l-Baha also gave this explanation.
Commentary on the Eleventh Chapter of Isaiah
These gives us the understandings we use.
Regards Tony
WonderingWorrier
Active Member
So do you think Muhammad got married receiving a woman bride religion. The twelve stars are the twelve Imams and the sun and the moon are the Persian and Ottoman empires?
"And in chapter 12 it is said: “And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars.” This woman is that bride, the religion of God, that descended upon Muḥammad. The sun with which she was clothed, and the moon which was under her feet, are the two governments which are under the shadow of that religion, the Persian and the Ottoman, for the emblem of Persia is the sun and that of the Ottoman Empire is the crescent moon. Thus the sun and the moon allude to two governments under the shadow of the religion of God. Afterwards it is said: “upon her head a crown of twelve stars”. These twelve stars represent the twelve Imáms, who were the promoters of the religion of Muḥammad and the educators of the nation, and who shone as stars in the heaven of guidance".
Do you think every time either sun or moon is mentioned in the Bible or Quran it is talking about the Persian and Ottoman empires?
WonderingWorrier
Active Member
How can they be a reference to the twelve imams? Where is the connection. Thats why I asked the question.
I see the connection is Islam one of the greatest civilisations on earth. This is God saying this about Ishmael so it’s something really huge not just a small earthly nation. Abraham was told His seed would inherit the earth. And through Abraham we have Judaism, Christianity and Islam some 4-5 billion believers.
To illustrate biblical symbolism, even the seven days of creation are symbolic and not talking about seven earthly days but Divine days and one day of God is a thousand years and synonymous with a new Manifestation arising. So in the Adamic cycle we have had about seven religions appear over 6-7000 years. It all makes so much sense especially when science has proven that the earth is some 4.5 billion years old.
No I would not in any way think that every time the Sun and Moon is mentioned it is talking about the Persian and Ottoman empires. (I will give another thought at the end)
Baha'u'llah gave us an idea as to how much knowledge is contained in just one letter, let alone one word. An example is that of the word "sun", this is what Baha'u'llah said about that Word.
"...Bahá’u’lláh also gave in detail, in response to the questioner, several meanings pertaining to the word 'sun', adding that this word has so many other meanings that if ten secretaries were to record His explanations for a period of one or two years, He would still not exhaust its significance". Adib Taherzadeh, The Revelation of Bahá’u’lláh v 1, p. 29-33
Abdul'baha offers this, advising us not to limit our understandings of scriptures.
".. All the texts and teachings of the holy Testaments have intrinsic spiritual meanings. They are not to be taken literally. I, therefore, pray in your behalf that you may be given the power of understanding these inner real meanings of the Holy Scriptures and may become informed of the mysteries deposited in the words of the Bible so that you may attain eternal life and that your hearts may be attracted to the Kingdom of God..."
Thus the explanation given by Abdul'baha on this verse “And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars.” in chapter 12, was showing us the meaning of that prophecy in the context of the Revelation of Muḥammad.
Now Sun and Moon have many other interpretations and in context give other meanings and insights. There are way to many uses in the Baha'i Writings to post them, this link talks about the symbolism of the word Sun.
Just as the Material Sun gives life to material creation, so does the sun give light to the spiritual sense.
Regards Tony