True faith teaches by Itself.

[ecco]

That is what this OP is all about. As people move away from that Word, the standard for humanity, the worse the world affairs become.

No one is moving away from a Word they never heard of. The vast majority of people are not even aware of Bahai.

So consider, the world and its affairs are a direct consequence of neglect of God and the given Messages to humanity.

Why is your God neglecting us? If things are getting worse, one would think your God would pay more attention.

That in one way or another is taught in all God given Faiths, we are constantly warned that turning to God is for our own benefit, as God does not need us.

Hmm. God does not need humans?

He sure spends a lot of time sending "messengers" to us ignorant humans. Why bother trying to communicate with entities that He doesn't need?

Why is it that when a child dies, so many GodBelievers say, God needed another angel by His side?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

It's really hard for you to actually address my comments. Why is that? If The Word is really important, why can't you defend it? Tap dancing around isn't defending.

As I said earlier, the best you can do to support your contention about The Word is to cut and paste something attributed to your messenger. Perhaps that is meaningful to you. It's not meaningful to the vast majority of humanity. The vast majority of humanity has never heard about The Word. Therefore, it is not going to move the vast majority of humanity.

That is this OP Ecco. That Word is available to all and it is our guide in life. If we are not willing to search it out on our own, and we are opposed to even the concept, then there is no debate to be had.

Like the comment in your post, you choose not to read and consider the words that were recorded and what the OP is suggesting is that written word you and others choose not to look at, is the highest aspiration and knowledge that we can obtain to, any potential within us will relate back to that written word.

That is applicable to all the words spoken by all the Messengers. They one an all have recorded our greatest potential, all we can become.

I can not argue to a truth one chose to not partake of, it is pointless ecco, it is only entertaining for one that likes to argue.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

That is true. It also proves that your contention, as expressed in the title of the OP, is completely wrong. You asserted:
True faith teaches by Itself.

In your frame of reference that may be the case, but I have a different frame of reference, as I see even if we chose not to follow the Word, it teaches us by default, our actions become our punishment.

This world of opposites has has one aspect of reward and punishment. Reward is turning towards the virtues, morals and advice in a given Message and punishment is the neglect.

Both paths are learning, and many that chose to reject that Message and later in life embrace it, find out how much lessons are contained within. Ask any born again Christian, I am sure they will offer a story where they bear witness to the power conatianed within the Word, and that in itself is a proof to the validity of this OP.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

No one is moving away from a Word they never heard of. The vast majority of people are not even aware of Bahai.

The Word is the entire body of teachings from the beginning until the end. It is every Message already given from God and every Message yet to be given.

One does not have had to heard of Baha'i as the Message is our birth right, it is contained in each and all of us, it is the cause of our creation.

This is not all about Baha'i, Baha’u’llah has only shown us how we have that potential and how to obtain unto it in this age. If one has not heard of Baha'u'llah, the potential is still inherent and there is no excuse not to bring it out. You can be a Buddhist, a Hindu, a Muslim, a Jew etc or one of no faith and it is inherent within.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Why is your God neglecting us? If things are getting worse, one would think your God would pay more attention.

There has been never so much guidance given as in this age.

So one can ask why do we do to each other what God has asked us not to do and why do we act how God has asked us not to act.

Why in the turmoil do we choose not to pay more attention to what God is offering?

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Hmm. God does not need humans?

He sure spends a lot of time sending "messengers" to us ignorant humans. Why bother trying to communicate with entities that He doesn't need?

Why is it that when a child dies, so many GodBelievers say, God needed another angel by His side?

That is what Faith is all about. Life is given so we can know and Love God and to achieve that, this matrix is perfect.

It is a gift to us, but a gift given needs to be opened before it can be seen and appreciated.

Regards Tony

 

[syo]

Nah, faith feeds self-delusion.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Warned and advised by who, PRECISELY?

Hahaha... thank you for this. Just further confirmation that it more often than not ends in this exact thing. An unwillingness to answer for fear of implicating oneself... on the side of the theist that is. I don't know that I have ever seen this same behavior from atheists, honestly. Fear to answer... it is most definitely unbecoming in my opinion. You take care now.

As Faith has a Message, the Message of that Faith is what gives the answers for the age we live in.

So to me the Message of Baha'u'llah contains the answers for this age.

I am willing to discuss it in the context of this OP.

Regards Tony

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

As Faith has a Message, the Message of that Faith is what gives the answers for the age we live in.

So, "faith" warned and advised us in "from 1844 to 1957" about pandemics? And then from 1957 onward "faith" is what shared with us the information about pandemics and how to react to them?

So to me the Message of Baha'u'llah contains the answers for this age.

Okay... wait... so now it is "Baha'u'llah" who warned and advised us in "from 1844 to 1957" about pandemics? Was he also the one sharing the information from the warning from 1957 onward?

I am willing to discuss it in the context of this OP.

Okay... but please stick to the whole pandemics/viral-transmission/scientific discovery theme we were on in the other thread. Seems to me you are just walking way out into left field... but I am not going to throw the ball there. I refuse. My questions above are intended to keep the dicussion on track.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So, "faith" warned and advised us in "from 1844 to 1957" about pandemics? And then from 1957 onward "faith" is what shared with us the information about pandemics and how to react to them?

The message gives the requirements for the age, that when practiced give us the environment where pandemics can not thrive and give us the capacity to address the science required to tackle the issues that arise.

Thus the advice covers many aspects, not just a pandemic.

Regards Tony

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

The message gives the requirements for the age, that when practiced give us the environment where pandemics can not thrive and give us the capacity to address the science required to tackle the issues that arise.

Thus the advice covers many aspects, not just a pandemic.

Regards Tony

So... is "the message" what those scientists on the ground (investigating how viruses function, how our body thwarts them, what we can do to aid our body, etc) turn to for their information? Is that how you expect this works?

 

[TransmutingSoul]

So... is "the message" what those scientists on the ground (investigating how viruses function, how our body thwarts them, what we can do to aid our body, etc) turn to for their information? Is that how you expect this works?

I see all are influenced by the Message, even without having to know that.

A good example is what I am currently listening to about the 1960`s Afghanistan.

So women had freedom, schooling, it was open to the world really starting to become world citizens. Then the men who did not want change started their movements creating radical groups and starting communism, insurrections and oppression, then by 1979 holy Islamic war, same in Iran.

So there is is, live by the word or live in conflict with the word.

Regards Tony

 

[Spirit of Light]

What is there to debate on this topic?

Well I guess that is the entire debate about God and Religion.

I have done some interesting reading from talks given by Abdu’l-Baha early on, before the first world war in America. What I have been reading is all the press releases of that time and how he was seen by the reporters and the public.

What I have found is that my view of faith and how to share it has been very wrong, in fact I feel as a Baha'i we have got it wrong in many ways.

I now consider that True Faith, given by God actually teaches itself. The written Word is proof of what we will and can become, only if we become that Word in our own lives and that and only that is the ultimate teacher.

Thus Abdul'baha offered no one needs to change their Faith, as a True Christian, or a Muslim, or a Hindu, or a Buddhist is already true to God.

This is from my Faith, I am sure yours also has writings that will give the same thoughts.

"When asked on one occasion: “What is a Bahá’í?” ‘Abdu’l-Bahá replied: “To be a Bahá’í simply means to love all the world; to love humanity and try to serve it; to work for universal peace and universal brotherhood.” On another occasion He defined a Bahá’í as “one endowed with all the perfections of man in activity.” In one of His London talks He said that a man may be a Bahá’í even if He has never heard the name of Bahá’u’lláh. He added:—
The man who lives the life according to the teachings of Bahá’u’lláh is already a Bahá’í. On the other hand, a man may call himself a Bahá’í for fifty years, and if he does not live the life he is not a Bahá’í. An ugly man may call himself handsome, but he deceives no one,.... not even himself."

Thus I am thinking that God has a plan, our lives are directed by our obedience to that plan, or our ignorance, or even rebellion against it.

Can you argue against that? If the intent of your Faith is to be the best you can and become one with all others, would you still argue with others of another faith that have the same goal?

I am seeing the argument over doctrinal differences only feeds the fire of disunity.

It may be that we are to find a unity in our diversity of Faiths, only when we practice what those Faiths offer in personal conduct.

Regards Tony

When i read your OP i find your words to hold a lot of truth And i can even recognize a lot of the same way of thinking as Sufism teaches me. To be a sufi one has to live as one, same for you as a Baha`i

I would think it counts for all form of spiritual lifestyle actually.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

When i read your OP i find your words to hold a lot of truth And i can even recognize a lot of the same way of thinking as Sufism teaches me. To be a sufi one has to live as one, same for you as a Baha`i

I would think it counts for all form of spiritual lifestyle actually.

I can see it in your heart Conscious thoughts, we have a lot of common faith practices. I see Sufism concentrates on personal transformation, which is what we all need to achieve.

All the best, regards Tony

 

[ecco]

A good example is what I am currently listening to about the 1960`s Afghanistan.

So women had freedom, schooling, it was open to the world really starting to become world citizens. Then the men who did not want change started their movements creating radical groups and starting communism, insurrections and oppression, then by 1979 holy Islamic war, same in Iran.

So there is is, live by the word or live in conflict with the word.

What you choose to completely ignore is that the people doing the oppressing, are following The Word. In this case, The Word is the Koran, which was (ostensibly) written by one of your Holy Messengers.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

What you choose to completely ignore is that the people doing the oppressing, are following The Word. In this case, The Word is the Koran, which was (ostensibly) written by one of your Holy Messengers.

They have their choices as do you.

Many can claim to be a followers of the Word, but man has a habit of making that word fit their desires.

A good way to tell is if they are serving humanity, or are they getting humanity to serve them? The latter is not of the Word of God.

Regards Tony

 

[ecco]

They have their choices as do you.

Many can claim to be a followers of the Word, but man has a habit of making that word fit their desires.

A good way to tell is if they are serving humanity, or are they getting humanity to serve them?

I'm sure that the Taliban that are now taking over Afghanistan truly believe that Their Word prohibits women from being the equal of man.

If man can easily make The Word fit his desires, then The Word is vague and ambiguous. In the case of the Koran, your Messenger, Mohammed, dutifully wrote down God's words for all of humanity. Therefore, it is obvious that God made The Word vague and ambiguous.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I'm sure that the Taliban that are now taking over Afghanistan truly believe that Their Word prohibits women from being the equal of man.

If man can easily make The Word fit his desires, then The Word is vague and ambiguous. In the case of the Koran, your Messenger, Mohammed, dutifully wrote down God's words for all of humanity. Therefore, it is obvious that God made The Word vague and ambiguous.

That is what this OP is about.

So let's see what the world does about Afghanistan. My guess is that what is actually of God and not man, will win the day. These things do not happen overnight and that is how the Word of God is embraced, it permeates the world one heart at a time.

Regards Tony

 

[Truthseeker]

If man can easily make The Word fit his desires, then The Word is vague and ambiguous. In the case of the Koran, your Messenger, Mohammed, dutifully wrote down God's words for all of humanity. Therefore, it is obvious that God made The Word vague and ambiguous.

It's the Hadiths that they interpret, not the Qur'an. The Hadith were written down a couple centuries after Muhammad allegedly said them. At the beginning they understood, but the waters were muddied by Hadith.

 

[ecco]

So let's see what the world does about Afghanistan. My guess is that what is actually of God and not man, will win the day.

So, in your opinion, denigrating women is of god and not of man.
So, in your opinion, beheading captured soldiers is of god and not of man.

You do have an interesting outlook.