Trump has a real opportunity with the anthem protests, but, undoubtedly, he will waste it.

[leibowde84]

Neither is OK.

Btw, why is it OK to kneel in protest of the statistically nebulous treatment of minorities by the police (which frankly, I think is a lot of media race-baiting) and not in protest of the thousands of veterans living on the streets, without so much as medical care? Isn't anyone raising awareness about that? My goodness! If someone wanted to really protest against the injustices in America, I can think of none better than those the flag and country have turned its back on... veterans. Where's the wailing and gnashing of teeth for them? And where's the programs being instituted by these overpaid pampered attention-seekers for minority kids to keep them out of trouble, and put them on the fast track out of poverty and a life of crime? I'll ask again... What are they doing other than grandstanding? Wait, I'll answer that... they're doing NOTHING.

I've heard this argument quite a bit. "Why are they protesting police brutality and racial prejudice when there are other bad things they could protest?" Imho, this is a ludicrous position. There isn't a requirement that you have to protest every single issue simultaneously for any of them to be valid. And, there isn't a requirement that the biggest issue in your opinion must be the top priority of everyone else.

They obviously feel that this is a critical issue that must be addressed. Because of this, they should be applauded for trying to raise awareness about it. Now, we will have to wait and see what else they do to address the issue, but this is a good start. Spreading awareness must be the first step.

 

[leibowde84]

Barnyard effluvium sourced from male bovines.

They have clearly stated that the protest is about racial prejudice and police brutality. What evidence leads you to believe they are lying?

 

[Koldo]

Neither is OK.

Btw, why is it OK to kneel in protest of the statistically nebulous treatment of minorities by the police (which frankly, I think is a lot of media race-baiting) and not in protest of the thousands of veterans living on the streets, without so much as medical care? Isn't anyone raising awareness about that? My goodness! If someone wanted to really protest against the injustices in America, I can think of none better than those the flag and country have turned its back on... veterans. Where's the wailing and gnashing of teeth for them? And where's the programs being instituted by these overpaid pampered attention-seekers for minority kids to keep them out of trouble, and put them on the fast track out of poverty and a life of crime? I'll ask again... What are they doing other than grandstanding? Wait, I'll answer that... they're doing NOTHING.

Ever heard about Appeal to Worse Problems ?

 

[Jainarayan]

Ever heard about Appeal to Worse Problems ?

Documented numbers of homeless veterans are not a worse problem than nebulous and debated statistics of mistreatment of minorities?

But setting aside the veterans... what actions to remedy the mistreatment of minorities are the players taking? I mean, real tangible actions? I'm growing tired of asking the question and not even getting a ridiculous answer. I'll settle for ludicrous at this point.

 

[Jainarayan]

I've heard this argument quite a bit. "Why are they protesting police brutality and racial prejudice when there are other bad things they could protest?" Imho, this is a ludicrous position.

How many homeless vets are there?
Provide names and numbers of the minority persons allegedly unjustifiably killed or injured by police, locations, dates, reason, facts surrounding alleged incidents.

Then tell me which is the worse of the two problems.

They obviously feel that this is a critical issue that must be addressed. Because of this, they should be applauded for trying to raise awareness about it. Now, we will have to wait and see what else they do to address the issue, but this is a good start. Spreading awareness must be the first step.

I think I'd rather play with cobras and take my chances waiting for anti-venom than wait for them to get off their... knees... and do something.

 

[Jainarayan]

They have clearly stated that the protest is about racial prejudice and police brutality. What evidence leads you to believe they are lying?

My belief that they've bought into media flame-baiting hook, line and sinker. Given some of their records, professional athletes are not the brightest bulbs on the marquee, y'know.

 

[Koldo]

Documented numbers of homeless veterans are not a worse problem than nebulous and debated statistics of mistreatment of minorities?

But setting aside the veterans... what actions to remedy the mistreatment of minorities are the players taking? I mean, real tangible actions? I'm growing tired of asking the question and not even getting a ridiculous answer. I'll settle for ludicrous at this point.

Have you even clicked the link ?

I will post it again: Appeal to Worse Problems - TV Tropes

 

[Jainarayan]

Have you even clicked the link ?

Yes, I did. And... ?

 

[Koldo]

Yes, I did. And... ?

Are you sure ?
Because your former post makes me think you didn't since the link addresses your post. Either that or you didn't understand what was being said.

It is not a matter of what is the worse ( or worst ) problem. Just because someone protests about some issue it doesn't mean they don't care about some other problems either.

 

[Jainarayan]

Are you sure ?
Because your former post makes me think you didn't since the link addresses your post. Either that or you didn't understand what was being said.

It is not a matter of what is the worse ( or worst ) problem. Just because someone protests about some issue it doesn't mean they don't care about some other problems either.

I read it, and I understand it. My point is that in my opinion they are protesting something they are actually ignorant of. I'm not finding the right words, but I think they are following "mob thinking". The media have whipped up a frenzy by publishing and broadcasting stories that were outright lies about some of the police incidents. Of course there are racial problems in the US, and there are bad cops but I will never believe the majority of those stories were true. A few, yes; all, no. If I'm right, then yeah... there are bigger problems to protest. Even then, the form of protest they chose has done nothing to win people over to their side. They're not "raising awareness". They're simply alienating a hell of a lot of people.

 

[Koldo]

I read it, and I understand it. My point is that in my opinion they are protesting something they are actually ignorant of. I'm not finding the right words, but I think they are following "mob thinking". The media have whipped up a frenzy by publishing and broadcasting stories that were outright lies about some of the police incidents. Of course there are racial problems in the US, and there are bad cops but I will never believe the majority of those stories were true. A few, yes; all, no. If I'm right, then yeah... there are bigger problems to protest. Even then, the form of protest they chose has done nothing to win people over to their side. They're not "raising awareness". They're simply alienating a hell of a lot of people.

How come ?
You are aware of it now. It did work.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Why has this become so prevalent in the West?

Largely, I believe, because of the Bible, because of Adam and Eve being together with just their children, and the Bible later saying the children will leave to form their own families. Combine that with a foolish love of individualism that is fueled by the inherent competitive nature of a free-market economy and built into the American identity itself that decided once a child is of a legal adult age they are on their own. Combine that with early/mid 20th century government and corporate propaganda and working to control not citizens but consumers, and we have indeed found ourselves in a very sad situation. But, then again, what can you expect out of a culture that even puts infants in their own bedroom and relies on video and audio monitoring?
The delicious irony comes from the fact that this hyper-individualistic culture has been lead by a dangling carrot into cookie cutter molds, with that carrot being the American Dream.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Well we can't do anything about unreported crimes. Unless people start reporting them.

But that's in issue with saying "x group does y crime." We don't really actually have the full picture. And when you combine the fact that city police departments in many cases aren't required to report things to anyone above them, and it's lead many researchers to dead ends in trying to get to the bottom of what all the exact numbers really are.

 

[Jainarayan]

It did work.

Okay, if you say so.

 

[Enoch07]

But that's in issue with saying "x group does y crime." We don't really actually have the full picture. And when you combine the fact that city police departments in many cases aren't required to report things to anyone above them, and it's lead many researchers to dead ends in trying to get to the bottom of what all the exact numbers really are.

Perhaps, but regardless. Poverty is the real issue. Regardless of what ethnicity anyone is poverty is always associated with high crime rates and homicide. African Americans are the 2nd largest population after Caucasians. They also have a high poverty rate. These 2 factors are what makes the disproportionate high rate of black crime. Not racism or oppression. Caucasians and Hispanics at similar poverty levels also experience high crime and homicide numbers. So the common denominator is poverty. Has nothing to do with ethnicity.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I've heard this argument quite a bit. "Why are they protesting police brutality and racial prejudice when there are other bad things they could protest?" Imho, this is a ludicrous position. There isn't a requirement that you have to protest every single issue simultaneously for any of them to be valid. And, there isn't a requirement that the biggest issue in your opinion must be the top priority of everyone else.

They obviously feel that this is a critical issue that must be addressed. Because of this, they should be applauded for trying to raise awareness about it. Now, we will have to wait and see what else they do to address the issue, but this is a good start. Spreading awareness must be the first step.

This is perhaps the finest summary of why Egalitarianism fails that I have read.

Perhaps, but regardless. Poverty is the real issue. Regardless of what ethnicity anyone is poverty is always associated with high crime rates and homicide.

Yup. 'Tis another problem with "x group does y crime." Of course poverty brings crime. It also walks hand-in-hand with drug abuse, broken families, poor academic performance, poor nutrition, and it tends to be a vicious perpetual cycle passing from parents to child, to grand child. It skews the statistics, because black people disproportionately live in poverty.

 

[leibowde84]

How many homeless vets are there?
Provide names and numbers of the minority persons allegedly unjustifiably killed or injured by police, locations, dates, reason, facts surrounding alleged incidents.

Then tell me which is the worse of the two problems.

The fact is, it doesn't matter. Protests aren't limited to the worst problem currently in existence. There is an issue with racial prejudice and police brutality in this country, so any protest about it is valid. It doesn't matter one iota whether there are more serious problems out there. Veteran homelessness is a problem, sure. Maybe it's even a bigger problem. But, that doesn't mean that no other protests should be aloud, right?

I think I'd rather play with cobras and take my chances waiting for anti-venom than wait for them to get off their... knees... and do something.

OK. To each their own I guess.

 

[leibowde84]

My belief that they've bought into media flame-baiting hook, line and sinker. Given some of their records, professional athletes are not the brightest bulbs on the marquee, y'know.

I've seen plenty of racial prejudice myself. And, I've also seen a lot of mistreatment of minorities by the police. So, there is, without a doubt in my mind, a problem with racial prejudice and police brutality in this country. Good for the players for at least attempting to spread the word. Shame on anyone who is trying to restrict their constitutionally protected right to do so without the Government (Trump) getting in the way.

Let the free market figure it out. If fans want to stop watching football, they are free to do so. If owners want to fire players, they are free to do so. Sunday clearly demonstrated that isn't going to happen though, as the owners are in solidarity with the players' right to protest.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Why do they play the Anthem at games anyway?
I can understand national symbols at international games, but not at home games.

However, as an ousider, protests against racism seems very worthwhile, and worth supporting,especially when it is so much of a national problem in the USA.
trump seems to be trying to give racist attitudes legitimacy.

 

[leibowde84]

Documented numbers of homeless veterans are not a worse problem than nebulous and debated statistics of mistreatment of minorities?

But setting aside the veterans... what actions to remedy the mistreatment of minorities are the players taking? I mean, real tangible actions? I'm growing tired of asking the question and not even getting a ridiculous answer. I'll settle for ludicrous at this point.

This is the first step ... raising awareness. They want to start a conversation. Obviously, charities and fundraisers aren't going to help this problem at all. They are trying to get government actors (the police) to address racial prejudice in their ranks. Protests are the best way to start when taking on the government.