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Trump ordered to pay nearly 355 million in NY fraud case.

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
"Judge Arthur Engoron has already found Trump and his company violated 63(12) by fraudulently misstating the value of their assets on financial documents—though the trial is still moving forward on other claims—noting in his ruling the statute only required James to prove the Trump Organization’s statements of financial condition were “false and misleading” and that the company “repeatedly or persistently” used those statements to “transact business.”

Trump—who opposes Engoron’s ruling and denies any wrongdoing or fraud—has attacked the statute since the civil fraud trial against him began, claiming the law is “VERY UNFAIR” because no victim is required and does not give him the right to a jury trial and falsely alleging Tuesday it’s “never been used before.”

The statute does not require intent to commit fraud or anyone to be harmed by the fraud, and it does not give Trump the inherent right to a jury trial, with legal experts noting to CNN that while civil lawsuits that request monetary damages are entitled to a jury trial, cases seeking other “equitable relief”—meaning penalties that force the defendant to take or refrain from taking some kind of action, rather than just paying money—can be decided by a judge alone, which is more common with 63(12) violations and is the case in this trial.

Engoron explained at the trial last week that while Trump could have opposed James’ request for a non-jury trial—which his attorneys didn’t do—it “would not have helped,” because James’ request for equitable relief should be left up to a judge to decide"

Okay, that may have been what the judge would have decided. I can quote you where the New York state constitution guarantees trial by jury. If they had asked for a jury and the judge denied it that would have been a basis for appeal. Perhaps the judge would have been right, perhaps not. But it does not matter

Neither side asked for a jury. Each side could have and then the judge would have had to have decided. But neither side did. So we will never know if that interpretation of the law was correct for this case.


Do you not understand that Trump's attorneys never asked for a jury? And it is clear in New York state law that if one does not petition for a jury in a civil case that none will be given.
 

Ebionite

Well-Known Member
Even so, you asked the wrong question.
No, I didn't.

Why did you use 1956?
Because of what you posted:

Did you ignore where I quoted and posted from it? It demonstrated that until 1956 if I remember correctly that they followed "Common Law"". That was changed to Statue Law. I could quote the source again. I still have it handy.

That was very ignorant at best.
Like I've said before, you don't know what you are talking about. The LLM at you.com just confirmed that.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
No, I didn't.


Because of what you posted:




Like I've said before, you don't know what you are talking about.
You should have gotten from context that was about the specific law in this case. Don't blame others when you jump to incredibly unjustified conclusions. Statutory law existed long before that particular law.
 

fantome profane

Anti-Woke = Anti-Justice
Premium Member
Special pleading. Do you have anything about 1956?
It was a good year for poodle skirts.

Seriously, I am not special pleading in anyway. You.com is not a good source for legal information on any topic. It is not a good source for any information about anything.



Other than that, I am not getting involved in this specific aspect of this debate. Have a good night.
 

We Never Know

No Slack
Okay, that may have been what the judge would have decided. I can quote you where the New York state constitution guarantees trial by jury. If they had asked for a jury and the judge denied it that would have been a basis for appeal. Perhaps the judge would have been right, perhaps not. But it does not matter

Neither side asked for a jury. Each side could have and then the judge would have had to have decided. But neither side did. So we will never know if that interpretation of the law was correct for this case.


Do you not understand that Trump's attorneys never asked for a jury? And it is clear in New York state law that if one does not petition for a jury in a civil case that none will be given.

Do you not understanding these two paragraphs? There is no "guarantee for a trial by jury" under 63(12)
Not to mention Attorney General Letitia James requested a non-jury trial.

"The statute does not require intent to commit fraud or anyone to be harmed by the fraud, and it does not give Trump the inherent right to a jury trial, with legal experts noting to CNN that while civil lawsuits that request monetary damages are entitled to a jury trial, cases seeking other “equitable relief”—meaning penalties that force the defendant to take or refrain from taking some kind of action, rather than just paying money—can be decided by a judge alone, which is more common with 63(12) violations and is the case in this trial.

Engoron explained at the trial last week that while Trump could have opposed James’ request for a non-jury trial—which his attorneys didn’t doitwould not have helped,” because James’ request for equitable relief should be left up to a judge to decide"
 
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Ebionite

Well-Known Member
Seriously, I am not special pleading in anyway. You.com is not a good source for legal information on any topic. It is not a good source for any information about anything.
That's an awfully convenient opinion and and an even more convenient exit from the debate.
 

Ebionite

Well-Known Member
Engoron explained at the trial last week that while Trump could have opposed James’ request for a non-jury trial—which his attorneys didn’t doitwould not have helped,” because James’ request for equitable relief should be left up to a judge to decide"
The constitutional right to trial by jury isn't conditional on Engoron's opinion.
 

We Never Know

No Slack
The constitutional right to trial by jury isn't conditional on Engoron's opinion.
From Engoron himself...

"Former President Donald Trump did not request a jury for his New York civil fraud trial, but even if he had asked for one, the answer would've been "no," a judge said Wednesday.

Judge Arthur Engoron addressed an issue that had been the subject of speculation on social media and by Trump himself, saying it "keeps coming up," even though he doesn't "read the papers or go online to read about" the trial.

Engoron is presiding over the bench trial of a $250 million lawsuit filed in 2022 by New York Attorney General Letitia James, in which she accused Trump, two of his sons, their company and other executives of years of widespread fraud. Engoron said that in paperwork certifying that the case was ready for trial, James' office checked a box suggesting it be a non-jury proceeding.

Trump's team had 15 days to oppose that, but did not, Engoron said, because there was no point in doing so.

"It would not have helped to make a motion. Nobody forgot to check off a box," Engoron said
.

Engoron said the punishment being sought by the state is an "equitable" remedy, as opposed to a "legal" remedy.

A legal remedy is an award for damages, which can be determined by a jury. Earlier this year, a federal jury awarded the writer E. Jean Carroll $5 million in damages after finding Trump liable for sexual abuse and defamation. The damages were not an amount Trump took from her, but rather a sum the jury concluded might remedy the emotional, physical and reputational harm Trump had caused.

In the ongoing New York fraud case, the state is seeking $250 million in disgorgement, a kind of equitable remedy that is a clawback of ill-gotten gains — the amount of benefit that the state says Trump and the co-defendants personally received from alleged fraud. Authorities cannot ask a jury to make that kind of calculation.

"That leaves it up to the judge," Engoron said"
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Do you not understanding these two paragraphs? There is no "guarantee for a trial by jury" under 63(12)

The statute does not require intent to commit fraud or anyone to be harmed by the fraud, and it does not give Trump the inherent right to a jury trial, with legal experts noting to CNN that while civil lawsuits that request monetary damages are entitled to a jury trial, cases seeking other “equitable relief”—meaning penalties that force the defendant to take or refrain from taking some kind of action, rather than just paying money—can be decided by a judge alone, which is more common with 63(12) violations and is the case in this trial.

Engoron explained at the trial last week that while Trump could have opposed James’ request for a non-jury trial—which his attorneys didn’t doitwould not have helped,” because James’ request for equitable relief should be left up to a judge to decide"

You might be right. And that is because Trump was wrong. This was not fining Trump. It was taking back ill gotten gains. A procedure legally known as "disgorgement". If it was personal a jury would have been involved, as in a damages claim.

"In the ongoing New York fraud case, the state is seeking $250 million in disgorgement, a kind of equitable remedy that is a clawback of ill-gotten gains — the amount of benefit that the state says Trump and the co-defendants personally received from alleged fraud. Authorities cannot ask a jury to make that kind of calculation."

'"That leaves it up to the judge," Engoron said.'

And what James did was only to say that she did not want a jury. That happens a lot with both sides. In a normal case this happens too and it does not matter if the other side does request a jury. James checking of her box did not put any pressure onto the judge. He was probably going to do it himself anyway:

'Engoron earned the gratitude of one Trump lawyer who has insisted the lack of a jury was not due to an oversight.

"I would like to say thank you, your honor," said attorney Alina Habba, before turning to reporters in the gallery. "Press, did you hear that? I didn't forget to check the box." '

 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I think that it was more a matter of publicity. With a bench trial the judge is given most of the evidence before the trial even begins. Then both sides argue their case. It is usually a much quicker trial. In fact so quick that either side can ask for a decision ahead of time. In this case both did. That would have led to a guilty verdict with almost no coverage of why. Just in case you forgot the judge found Trump guilty based upon the evidence that both sides agreed to. The trial became one of "How much did Trump owe". James understood Trump's tactics of trying to keep all of the evidence where it would only get light coverage in the news. So she presented her case again, and the defense was given the same opportunity. There was publicity galore which Trump did not want..
Given Trump's mental decline, I think
it's harder to discern his reasoning.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
No, the point is that you are misrepresenting the issue to cover for your ignorance of the common law.
Wrong again as I demonstrated with the post that compared the two. Very little of today's law is "common law". It has largely been replaced by statutory law.
 

Ebionite

Well-Known Member
From Engoron himself...
So what? His opinion doesn't change the language of 7A.

Seventh Amendment
In Suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise re-examined in any Court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member

Laniakea

Not of this world
I phrase it differently....
A party who fails at basic due diligence
is also responsible for the consequences.
This could be a legal problem for the bank
if it tries to recoup lost potential interest
income.
"Recover" from who?
That would be Trump. So this case still has a ways to go.
 

We Never Know

No Slack
So what? His opinion doesn't change the language of 7A.

Seventh Amendment
In Suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise re-examined in any Court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.
Try understanding the 7th instead of just reading it. Trump was in a state court.

"There are two main types of court systems in the United States: federal and state. The Seventh Amendment requires civil jury trials only in federal courts"

 
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