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Trump ordered to pay nearly 355 million in NY fraud case.

We Never Know

No Slack
I figured you to be a guy who’s up on the news.

I am. That link has nothing to do with his tax fraud trial and jail sentence.

I asked you in post #382 If you thought the accountants should be charged for fraud, filing false information, fined and lose their license for knowingly creating false values?


You said in post #395 "That’s why Weisselberg got got convicted as chief financial officer".

 
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Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
What assumption did I make in the post you quoted, other than assuming you could answer the question I asked you?
You were given a warning that you needed to ask politely. Try again. Leave any side comments off if you want an answer. All that I require is that you at least look as if you are trying to be honest when you want to learn how you screwed up.
 

Laniakea

Not of this world
You were given a warning that you needed to ask politely. Try again. Leave any side comments off if you want an answer. All that I require is that you at least look as if you are trying to be honest when you want to learn how you screwed up.
Ok.
Pretty, pretty please! Tell me why you refused to answer a simple question. And pretty, pretty please educate me about my own assumptions.
 

Laniakea

Not of this world
No, I merely want an honest question. Nothing more.

It is so odd that people think that they can be rude and demand answers at the same time.
You're the one who keeps coming back here and asking for it, so.....

Anyway, what assumption did I make in the post you quoted, other than assuming you could answer the question I asked you?
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
You're the one who keeps coming back here and asking for it, so.....

Anyway, what assumption did I make in the post you quoted, other than assuming you could answer the question I asked you?
You added a snide comment. Once again, that is rude. All that you need to do is to ask a question properly. If you do not want to do so I will just assume that you know that you were wrong. You may not understand how you were wrong, but your inability to ask a question without elaboration does not bode well for you.
 

Laniakea

Not of this world
You added a snide comment. Once again, that is rude. All that you need to do is to ask a question properly. If you do not want to do so I will just assume that you know that you were wrong. You may not understand how you were wrong, but your inability to ask a question without elaboration does not bode well for you.
Whew! Looks like I've just offended someone with delicate emotions.
download.jpg
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
Rubbish. Equity and law are not the same thing.
Equity (Law)

United States​

In modern practice, perhaps the most important distinction between law and equity is the set of remedies each offers. The most common civil remedy a court of law can award is monetary damages. Equity, however, enters injunctions or decrees directing someone either to act or to forbear from acting. Often, this form of relief is in practical terms more valuable to a litigant; for example, a plaintiff whose neighbor will not return his only milk cow, which had wandered onto the neighbor's property, may want that particular cow back, not just its monetary value. However, in general, a litigant cannot obtain equitable relief unless there is "no adequate remedy at law"; that is, a court will not grant an injunction unless monetary damages are an insufficient remedy for the injury in question. Law courts can also enter certain types of immediately enforceable orders, called "writs" (such as a writ of habeas corpus), but they are less flexible and less easily obtained than an injunction.

Another distinction is the unavailability of a jury in equity: the judge is the trier of fact. In the American legal system, the right of jury trial in civil cases tried in federal court is guaranteed by the Seventh Amendment in Suits at common law, cases that traditionally would have been handled by the law courts. The question of whether a case should be determined by a jury depends largely on the type of relief the plaintiff requests. If a plaintiff requests damages in the form of money or certain other forms of relief, such as the return of a specific item of property, the remedy is considered legal, and a jury is available as the fact-finder. On the other hand, if the plaintiff requests an injunction, declaratory judgment, specific performance, modification of contract, or some other non-monetary relief, the claim would usually be one in equity.

Thomas Jefferson explained in 1785 that there are three main limitations on the power of a court of equity: "If the legislature means to enact an injustice, however palpable, the court of Chancery is not the body with whom a correcting power is lodged. That it shall not interpose in any case which does not come within a general description and admit of redress by a general and practicable rule."[43] The US Supreme Court, however, has concluded that courts have wide discretion to fashion relief in cases of equity. The first major statement of this power came in Willard v. Tayloe, 75 U.S. 557 (1869). The Court concluded that "relief is not a matter of absolute right to either party; it is a matter resting in the discretion of the court, to be exercised upon a consideration of all the circumstances of each particular case."[44] Willard v. Tayloe was for many years the leading case in contract law regarding intent and enforcement.[45][46] as well as equity.[45][47]

In the United States, the federal courts and most state courts have merged law and equity into courts of general jurisdiction, such as county courts. However, the substantive distinction between law and equity has retained its old vitality.[48] This difference is not a mere technicality, because the successful handling of certain law cases is difficult or impossible unless a temporary restraining order (TRO) or preliminary injunction is issued at the outset, to restrain someone from fleeing the jurisdiction taking the only property available to satisfy a judgment, for instance. Furthermore, certain statutes like the Employee Retirement Income Security Act specifically authorize only equitable relief, which forces American courts to analyze in lengthy detail whether the relief demanded in particular cases brought under those statutes would have been available in equity.[49]

Equity courts were widely distrusted in the northeastern United States following the American Revolution. A serious movement for merger of law and equity began in the states in the mid-19th century, when David Dudley Field II convinced New York State to adopt what became known as the Field Code of 1848.[50][51] The federal courts did not abandon the old law/equity separation until the promulgation of the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure in 1938.

Three states still have separate courts for law and equity: Delaware, whose Court of Chancery is where most cases involving Delaware corporations (which includes a disproportionate number of multi-state corporations) are decided; Mississippi; and Tennessee.[52] However, merger in some states is less than complete; some other states (such as Illinois and New Jersey) have separate divisions for legal and equitable matters in a single court. Virginia had separate law and equity dockets (in the same court) until 2006.[53] Besides corporate law, which developed out of the law of trusts, areas traditionally handled by chancery courts included wills and probate, adoptions and guardianships, and marriage and divorce. Bankruptcy was also historically considered an equitable matter; although bankruptcy in the United States is today a purely federal matter, reserved entirely to the United States Bankruptcy Courts by the enactment of the United States Bankruptcy Code in 1978, bankruptcy courts are still officially considered "courts of equity" and exercise equitable powers under Section 105 of the Bankruptcy Code.[54]

After US courts merged law and equity, American law courts adopted many of the procedures of equity courts. The procedures in a court of equity were much more flexible than the courts at common law. In American practice, certain devices such as joinder, counterclaim, cross-claim and interpleader originated in the courts of equity.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Equity (Law)

United States​

In modern practice, perhaps the most important distinction between law and equity is the set of remedies each offers. The most common civil remedy a court of law can award is monetary damages. Equity, however, enters injunctions or decrees directing someone either to act or to forbear from acting. Often, this form of relief is in practical terms more valuable to a litigant; for example, a plaintiff whose neighbor will not return his only milk cow, which had wandered onto the neighbor's property, may want that particular cow back, not just its monetary value. However, in general, a litigant cannot obtain equitable relief unless there is "no adequate remedy at law"; that is, a court will not grant an injunction unless monetary damages are an insufficient remedy for the injury in question. Law courts can also enter certain types of immediately enforceable orders, called "writs" (such as a writ of habeas corpus), but they are less flexible and less easily obtained than an injunction.

Another distinction is the unavailability of a jury in equity: the judge is the trier of fact. In the American legal system, the right of jury trial in civil cases tried in federal court is guaranteed by the Seventh Amendment in Suits at common law, cases that traditionally would have been handled by the law courts. The question of whether a case should be determined by a jury depends largely on the type of relief the plaintiff requests. If a plaintiff requests damages in the form of money or certain other forms of relief, such as the return of a specific item of property, the remedy is considered legal, and a jury is available as the fact-finder. On the other hand, if the plaintiff requests an injunction, declaratory judgment, specific performance, modification of contract, or some other non-monetary relief, the claim would usually be one in equity.

Thomas Jefferson explained in 1785 that there are three main limitations on the power of a court of equity: "If the legislature means to enact an injustice, however palpable, the court of Chancery is not the body with whom a correcting power is lodged. That it shall not interpose in any case which does not come within a general description and admit of redress by a general and practicable rule."[43] The US Supreme Court, however, has concluded that courts have wide discretion to fashion relief in cases of equity. The first major statement of this power came in Willard v. Tayloe, 75 U.S. 557 (1869). The Court concluded that "relief is not a matter of absolute right to either party; it is a matter resting in the discretion of the court, to be exercised upon a consideration of all the circumstances of each particular case."[44] Willard v. Tayloe was for many years the leading case in contract law regarding intent and enforcement.[45][46] as well as equity.[45][47]

In the United States, the federal courts and most state courts have merged law and equity into courts of general jurisdiction, such as county courts. However, the substantive distinction between law and equity has retained its old vitality.[48] This difference is not a mere technicality, because the successful handling of certain law cases is difficult or impossible unless a temporary restraining order (TRO) or preliminary injunction is issued at the outset, to restrain someone from fleeing the jurisdiction taking the only property available to satisfy a judgment, for instance. Furthermore, certain statutes like the Employee Retirement Income Security Act specifically authorize only equitable relief, which forces American courts to analyze in lengthy detail whether the relief demanded in particular cases brought under those statutes would have been available in equity.[49]

Equity courts were widely distrusted in the northeastern United States following the American Revolution. A serious movement for merger of law and equity began in the states in the mid-19th century, when David Dudley Field II convinced New York State to adopt what became known as the Field Code of 1848.[50][51] The federal courts did not abandon the old law/equity separation until the promulgation of the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure in 1938.

Three states still have separate courts for law and equity: Delaware, whose Court of Chancery is where most cases involving Delaware corporations (which includes a disproportionate number of multi-state corporations) are decided; Mississippi; and Tennessee.[52] However, merger in some states is less than complete; some other states (such as Illinois and New Jersey) have separate divisions for legal and equitable matters in a single court. Virginia had separate law and equity dockets (in the same court) until 2006.[53] Besides corporate law, which developed out of the law of trusts, areas traditionally handled by chancery courts included wills and probate, adoptions and guardianships, and marriage and divorce. Bankruptcy was also historically considered an equitable matter; although bankruptcy in the United States is today a purely federal matter, reserved entirely to the United States Bankruptcy Courts by the enactment of the United States Bankruptcy Code in 1978, bankruptcy courts are still officially considered "courts of equity" and exercise equitable powers under Section 105 of the Bankruptcy Code.[54]

After US courts merged law and equity, American law courts adopted many of the procedures of equity courts. The procedures in a court of equity were much more flexible than the courts at common law. In American practice, certain devices such as joinder, counterclaim, cross-claim and interpleader originated in the courts of equity.
Oh snap!!
 

Laniakea

Not of this world
No, not at all. I made a reasonable offer. It only takes a tiny bit of honesty on your part to not make false side comments. Simply asking a question politely and properly with no editorial comments is not "boot licking".
Oh my! Perhaps you should go back and read your own posts before attempting to educate others on being polite. As you've already learned, and been shown, you are quite condescending. Would you like me to show you again?
Do you recognize your error now?
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Oh my! Perhaps you should go back and read your own posts before attempting to educate others on being polite. As you've already learned, and been shown, you are quite condescending. Would you like me to show you again?
Do you recognize your error now?
Being able to support one's claims does give one a bit of leeway. I am not so demanding usually of @We Never Know because even though we disagree most of the time he will quite often support his claims. You do not do so.


Also, you are the one that wants to know how you screwed up. Wrong and rude is a toxic combination. You can be wrong and polite and people will debate with you all day long.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
to err is human.
I assume that you're referring to Trump. This guy doesn't just err now and again. Everything he has done since November 2020 has been a mistake. The most colossal blunders were attempting and failing at a self-coup, stealing government secrets and then hiding and sharing them, and defaming Carroll weeks after a $5 million dollar judgment against him for defamation leading to an $83 million judgment. That's not just erring. An error is burning the toast or running out of gas. He just threw everything away including his fortune and his children's inheritance, his freedom, and his legacy.
Trump has good intent
Trump has never done ANYTHING with good intent. It's remarkable that you could be so far off. I doubt that most Trump supporters feel that he has good intent. They love him for his malevolence.

You probably think that he cares about you and has (and will again if permitted) worked with your wellbeing in mind. He didn't and he wouldn't. He doesn't care about you or anybody else but himself.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
I am. That link has nothing to do with his tax fraud trial and jail sentence.

I asked you in post #382 If you thought the accountants should be charged for fraud, filing false information, fined and lose their license for knowingly creating false values?


You said in post #395 "That’s why Weisselberg got got convicted as chief financial officer".

I referred to Weisselberg as an example of there being criminal convictions in Trump Org. Cohen was also convicted.

I also mentioned that accountants that did valid assessments are off the hook even if their work was misused.

As far as others who contributed to the fraud I am not sure. Note that this was a civil lawsuit and not criminal. The explanation I heard was that criminal convictions are much more work, need more resources, and can be difficult for juries to understand.

It could be that criminal charges could come after this victory.
 

Ebionite

Well-Known Member
In modern practice, perhaps the most important distinction between law and equity is the set of remedies each offers
For the U.S. the most important distinction is lack of basis. The domain of equity originated in the English Court of Chancery, which was also known as the court of the king's conscience. With the revolutionary war and declaration of independence, the link to the source of that domain was severed.

At equity the doctrine of clean hands prevents the state from being the artiber of a dispute between itself and the person of Donald Trump, since there is no agent of the state who can arbitrate without the prejudice that arises from their security relationship with the state, which itself is a political construct and has no king from which it can draw an ethical basis. Election of a judicial agent by a majority who have political prejudice is no solution to the problem posed by the application of the doctrine of clean hands.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
For the U.S. the most important distinction is lack of basis. The domain of equity originated in the English Court of Chancery, which was also known as the court of the king's conscience. With the revolutionary war and declaration of independence, the link to the source of that domain was severed.

At equity the doctrine of clean hands prevents the state from being the artiber of a dispute between itself and the person of Donald Trump, since there is no agent of the state who can arbitrate without the prejudice that arises from their security relationship with the state, which itself is a political construct and has no king from which it can draw an ethical basis. Election of a judicial agent by a majority who have political prejudice is no solution to the problem posed by the application of the doctrine of clean hands.
I am well aware of all of this -- as a Canadian, I ought to be, since Canada is still a Commonwealth nation. But Donald Trump must be judged according to the laws of the United States, and in this case, the laws of New York State. You can complain all you like that there is no such thing as "Chancery" in the U.S., but that just happens to be the case, with the exception of Delaware, Mississippi and Tennessee. New York lacks such a separate court.

We live under the laws that are, not those we wish.
 

We Never Know

No Slack
I referred to Weisselberg as an example of there being criminal convictions in Trump Org. Cohen was also convicted.

I also mentioned that accountants that did valid assessments are off the hook even if their work was misused.

As far as others who contributed to the fraud I am not sure. Note that this was a civil lawsuit and not criminal. The explanation I heard was that criminal convictions are much more work, need more resources, and can be difficult for juries to understand.

It could be that criminal charges could come after this victory.
If you say so. Trump says he is innocent too but...
 
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