Trump ordered to pay nearly 355 million in NY fraud case.

[Brickjectivity]

Supporting Trump requires complete failure
to understand how commercial lending works.

I admit that I do not know anything about commercial lending, and all of this news from New York is mostly incomprehensible. How can a person inflate their property values without the banks knowing about it? Imagine if I took a piece of land worth $20,000 and got a bank to lend me a hundred thousand dollars using it for equity. Why would a bank do that? I don't know why other people in rural areas and who had public education would know any better either.

That Trump is under scrutiny does appear politically charged. What about all the other crooks in NYC? Nevertheless as a presidential candidate his nose ought to be clean. He should have thought of this before running for office.

 

[fantome profane]

That's not the same thing as fraud.

Yes, it is fraud. Presenting false information to a bank to get a better deal on a loan is the definition of bank fraud.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Yes, it is fraud. Presenting false information to a bank to get a better deal on a loan is the definition of bank fraud.

I think the question is whether of not it's $355 million worth of fraud.

 

[F1fan]

It's not wrong.


That's not the same thing as fraud.

It's literally fraud. I take it you are no expert in law.

No, the difference is that using counterfeit coupons only takes value from those who redeem them - there's no benefit that could outweigh the loss that they made on those transactions.

It is illegal and fraud. Why are you struggling to understand this?

You don't have the first clue about it.

False, I have read numerous reporting from reputable media outlets.

Do you think you have a "clue" about what Trump owes to various entities so far? Your posts suggest you don't.

 

[fantome profane]

I think the question is whether of not it's $355 million worth of fraud.

That is way beyond my level and I am not ashamed to admit it. Even if I had the information needed to answer that question, which I don't, I still wouldn't be able to.

Did you have a different number in mind?

 

[Revoltingest]

I admit that I do not know anything about commercial lending, and all of this news from New York is mostly incomprehensible. How can a person inflate their property values without the banks knowing about it?

That surprises me too.
Every lender I ever dealt with required that licensed
appraisers value the property. I surmise that Trump
had an improperly cozy relationship with people at
those banks..

Imagine if I took a piece of land worth $20,000 and got a bank to lend me a hundred thousand dollars using it for equity. Why would a bank do that? I don't know why other people in rural areas and who had public education would know any better either.

Borrowing a mere $100,000 means that you'd
be treated like the rest of us slobbering masses.
No special treatment. Everything by the book.

That Trump is under scrutiny does appear politically charged.

I see that too, but only because he raised his own
profile to the extent that crimes ordinarily ignored
no longer could be. Also, his criminal behavior
was more extensive than anyone knew.

Some advice to criminals....
Don't become high profile, then brag
about your crimes & impunity.

What about all the other crooks in NYC?

They get prosecuted too.

Nevertheless as a presidential candidate his nose ought to be clean. He should have thought of this before running for office.

Yer darn toot'n!
Ya, you betcha!
True dat!
Das stimmt!

 

[Soandso]

What about all the other crooks in NYC?

What about them? This isn't their time, this is Trump's time. The crimes they get caught for or get away with is irrelevant. Right now, Trump is reaping what he sewed. When they slip up their time will come as well

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

It's not wrong.


That's not the same thing as fraud.

Yes, it is.

No, the difference is that using counterfeit coupons only takes value from those who redeem them - there's no benefit that could outweigh the loss that they made on those transactions.

Of course there is.

A manufacturer is still making a profit off a sale even with a manufacturer's coupon; their profit margin is just smaller.

If Trump had been honest about his finances, the banks would have agreed to lend him money at one price. He lied and, on the basis of that lie, got them to lend him money at a lower price. The difference between those two prices is the amount he stole.

This is the same as how using a counterfeit $5 off coupon at the grocery store is a theft of $5, just on a much larger scale.

 

[Soandso]

I think the question is whether of not it's $355 million worth of fraud.

I guess we will find out after the appeals

 

[Revoltingest]

That's not the same thing as fraud.

That's exactly what fraud is.

My advice....
Do not lie on loan applications or affidavits
for the purpose of either borrowing more,
or getting a lower interest rate or lower
closing costs. It is fraud. It is a crime.
It is to cheat / defraud the lender.

 

[metis]

Further evidence that these cases are politically motivated to try to keep him from winning the presidency.
It'll backfire, just as the indictments did--and will get him even more support.

It would help if you took off the blinders because if one actually followed the case, they would well know that this has been his m.o. for decades now, plus the evidence in this case especially was overwhelming.

Here, from a non-partisan source: Personal and business legal affairs of Donald Trump - Wikipedia

 

[F1fan]

I admit that I do not know anything about commercial lending, and all of this news from New York is mostly incomprehensible. How can a person inflate their property values without the banks knowing about it? Imagine if I took a piece of land worth $20,000 and got a bank to lend me a hundred thousand dollars using it for equity. Why would a bank do that? I don't know why other people in rural areas and who had public education would know any better either.

Banks don't want to spend money doing this sort of independent work. There has been a long history of banks trusting the paperwork they are given. Look at the home loans that led to the collapse in 2009. That was due to greed and indifference to regulation.

Banks often look at what they can make and don't use the best judgment. Back in 2005 I got a construction loan from a local bank to buy and renovate a duplex. I made the payments every month and got a mortgage after 15 months, and paid off the loan. The bank made profit. I went back to the bank after this successful transaction to get another loan and they told me the guy I dealt with before had been fired because he gave out lots loans like mine, and many defaulted. I was one of the customers who actually paid back the loan. They said they no longer did investment loans. The guy got a bonus for approving loans and his standards were low and questionable. His actions were indicative of many banks and their policies. These types of low standard loans was a devastating blow to the global economy in 2009.

So if you had an accountant say that your piece of land was worth $100,000 you could likely find a bank willing to accept that at face value, and loan with that as collateral. That is what Trump did, he had accountants create false values and Trump used them to get loans. Remember investment banks have employees who get bonuses for signing loans. If those lons go belly up the brokers still keep their bonus. The banks lose. But banks also write off losses, and/or get bail outs.

That Trump is under scrutiny does appear politically charged.

Right. I'm willing to bet that if Trump had just minded his own business and not ventured into politics his life would be vastkly less stressful. But entering political life opens the door to massive scrutiny and investigations. Running to be a public servant means there will be many citizens who find corruption unacceptable, and as a result law enforcement will notice the attention.

Even if Trump had not lied about losing the 2020 election, and no Jan 6 riots, and given back all the stolen documents, I suspect he would not be facing 91 charges. If he had paid the $5 million to E. Gene Carroll and not defamed her he wouldn't owe an additional $83.3 million, plus interest. If he had settled with NY he would have a vastly smaller fine than $373 million, plus interest. The guy is just so stupid that it invites more legal consequences.

And this idiot wants to be president again? Does his poor judgment suggest a competent and wise mind in that makeup caked head of his?

What about all the other crooks in NYC?

They should be worried. Going after Trump and getting a huge fine will set a precedent that can be built upon.

Nevertheless as a presidential candidate his nose ought to be clean. He should have thought of this before running for office.

Right. As a strategy smart people know when to fold a bad hand, and Trump just keeps betting on losing cards. Only his followers buy into his bluffing. And do they really? Or are they just as dumb as him?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I admit that I do not know anything about commercial lending, and all of this news from New York is mostly incomprehensible. How can a person inflate their property values without the banks knowing about it? Imagine if I took a piece of land worth $20,000 and got a bank to lend me a hundred thousand dollars using it for equity. Why would a bank do that? I don't know why other people in rural areas and who had public education would know any better either.

That Trump is under scrutiny does appear politically charged. What about all the other crooks in NYC? Nevertheless as a presidential candidate his nose ought to be clean. He should have thought of this before running for office.

The banks won't just accept whatever value you say your property is worth. They'll generally rely on a licensed and qualified appraiser to determine the value.

Land appraisal is generally based on "the highest and best use" of the land.

Without checking the court transcript to see exactly what went down, it seems that Trump had two appraisals done on Mar-a-Lago: one before and one after the local council imposed a redevelopment ban on the property.

This council decision would have drastically reduced the value of the property - which Trump knew, because he used the newer, lower valuation for his taxes - but Trump gave the banks the older valuation, despite knowing that it was based on now-obsolete information.

 

[F1fan]

The banks won't just accept whatever value you say your property is worth. They'll generally rely on a licensed and qualified appraiser to determine the value.

Land appraisal is generally based on "the highest and best use" of the land.

Even with that the value of land can be very subjective. Look at what Trump did with Maralago. He worked out a deal with the county that it will never be used for development which meant the value froze at about $16 million. That helped Trump pay taxes on that amount. He later claimed Maralago is worth over $100 million since it could be developed. But he didn't reveal the deal that it can't be develped.

So if you had land that was worth $20,000, but showed a development plan that would make it worth $100,000 (if you found an investor that would commit to the plausible development) you could argue the $100,000 as the real value. Legally it would be value as long as the appraisals were valid. Now, would a bank gamble on this as collateral? Let's say they did, and then you defaulted and the bank went through the legal cost to take your land. The only way for them to get their money back was to find a buyer who would pay the $100,000 because they were going to develop it. The Glass-Stegeal Act was created in 1933 to separate investment banks from commercial banks to not rick the banks that average citizens use. This was reversed in 1999 by congress, and is thought to have led to the banking collape in 2008.

Glass-Steagall Act of 1933: Definition, Effects, and Repeal

The Glass-Steagall Act was established in 1933 and repealed in 1999. It was designed to separate commercial banking and investment banking.

www.investopedia.com

Without checking the court transcript to see exactly what went down, it seems that Trump had two appraisals done on Mar-a-Lago: one before and one after the local council imposed a redevelopment ban on the property.

This council decision would have drastically reduced the value of the property - which Trump knew, because he used the newer, lower valuation for his taxes - but Trump gave the banks the older valuation, despite knowing that it was based on now-obsolete information.

Exactly, and this is why Trump committed fraud.

 

[Revoltingest]

Even with that the value of land can be very subjective. Look at what Trump did with Maralago. He worked out a deal with the county that it will never be used for development which meant the value froze at about $16 million. That helped Trump pay taxes on that amount. He later claimed Maralago is worth over $100 million since it could be developed. But he didn't reveal the deal that it can't be develped.

So if you had land that was worth $20,000, but showed a development plan that would make it worth $100,000 (if you found an investor that would commit to the plausible development) you could argue the $100,000 as the real value. Legally it would be value as long as the appraisals were valid. Now, would a bank gamble on this as collateral? Let's say they did, and then you defaulted and the bank went through the legal cost to take your land. The only way for them to get their money back was to find a buyer who would pay the $100,000 because they were going to develop it. The Glass-Stegeal Act was created in 1933 to separate investment banks from commercial banks to not rick the banks that average citizens use. This was reversed in 1999 by congress, and is thought to have led to the banking collape in 2008.

Glass-Steagall Act of 1933: Definition, Effects, and Repeal

The Glass-Steagall Act was established in 1933 and repealed in 1999. It was designed to separate commercial banking and investment banking.

www.investopedia.com

Exactly, and this is why Trump committed fraud.

Property valuation isn't subjective. Appraisal reports
are objective, thorough, & quantitative. Objective things
include, gross income, expenses, net income, zoning
issues, environmental problems, etc, etc. I've been thru
it, sometimes involving phase 1 & phase 2 environmental
reports. It can all get very spendy when excavators are
exploring soil.
But there are some things that require estimations, eg,
expectations of changing markets. So there's some
subjectivity, but not enuf to call the process subjective.

If Trump is borrowing hundreds of millions of dollars,
& the lenders take Trump's word about value of
mortgaged properties, then there's something rotten
in Denmark Florida & NYC.
What also stinks is that Trump didn't make personal
guarantees for the loans. I've always had to do that.

 

[F1fan]

Property valuation isn't subjective.
Appraisal reports
are objective, thorough, & quantitative. Objective things
include, gross income, expenses, net income, zoning
issues, environmental problems, etc, etc. I've been thru
it, sometimes involving phase 1 & phase 2 environmental
reports. It can all get very spendy when excavators are
exploring soil.
But there are some things that require estimations, eg,
expectations of changing markets. So there's some
subjectivity, but not enuf to call the process subjective.

What's been happening in my neighborhood says you are incorrect. My city needs money. My neighborhood's home values have increased over 400% in the last decade, and property values have gone up to match that. The city has seen this as an opportunity to smack homeowners with massive increases. It 's a 115 year old set of homes and a mix of renovated homes with some in disrepair. The higher tax rates have forced out many older ressidents who can no longer afford to live here. And the city created appraisals on homes based on those that were newly revovated and sold at top dollar. There was such an uproar that the city was forced to allow homeowners an appeal, and demand actual appraisals. The city could not afford this, nor wanted the delay, so they just negotiated new tax burdens.

ppraisals are iften based on estimates of what a similar house will sell for based on what others sold for. It's all quite subjective, but within a tolerance or error.

 

[Revoltingest]

What's been happening in my neighborhood says you are incorrect. My city needs money. My neighborhood's home values have increased over 400% in the last decade, and property values have gone up to match that. The city has seen this as an opportunity to smack homeowners with massive increases. It 's a 115 year old set of homes and a mix of renovated homes with some in disrepair. The higher tax rates have forced out many older ressidents who can no longer afford to live here. And the city created appraisals on homes based on those that were newly revovated and sold at top dollar. There was such an uproar that the city was forced to allow homeowners an appeal, and demand actual appraisals. The city could not afford this, nor wanted the delay, so they just negotiated new tax burdens.

That's really a different issue.

ppraisals are iften based on estimates of what a similar house will sell for based on what others sold for. It's all quite subjective, but within a tolerance or error.

Have you ever read an appraisal? The estimates
are based upon objective adjustments to actual
sales of similar properties, eg, for differing square
footage, for age, for condition, for occupancy level.
This is objective. And this is especially so for
commercial real property....the kind Trump finances.

It seems that even Trump's foes are giving him
aid & comfort with claims that valuation is
fraught with subjectivity. It ain't so. This stinks
of a corrupt relationship, one that replaces
objective valuation with corruption, ie, pulling
self serving values out of Trump's pigu

 

[Altfish]

Who were the victims? Who claimed to have been wronged?

Tax payers, various services that are underfunded because of non-payment of taxes, the public who have to pay more taxes because Trump didn't pay his. I'm sure there are more victims.

 

[Brickjectivity]

What about them? This isn't their time, this is Trump's time. The crimes they get caught for or get away with is irrelevant. Right now, Trump is reaping what he sewed. When they slip up their time will come as well

Well isn't Trump supposed to be tried by a jury of his peers? Why isn't his jury made up of crooks? Also you should see Rev's reply to my question.

 

[Ebionite]

It's literally fraud. I take it you are no expert in law.

Like I said, you have no clue.

From Black's dictionary of law:

Fraud. An intentional perversion of truth for the purpose of inducing another in reliance upon it to part with some valuable thing belonging to him or to surrender a legal right. A false representation of a matter ot" fact, whether by words or by conduct, by false or misleading allegations, or by concealment of that which should have been disclosed, which deceives and is intended to deceive another so that he shall act upon it to his legal injury. Any kind of artifice employed by one person to deceive another. Goldstein v. Equitable Life Assur. Soc. of U. S., 1 60 Misc. 364, 289 N.Y.S. 1064, 1067. A generic term, embracing all multifarious means which human ingenuity can devise, and which are resorted to by one individual to get advantage over another by false suggestions or by suppression of truth, and includes all surprise, trick, cunning, dissembling, and any unfair way by which another is cheated. Johnson v. McDonald, 1 70 Okl. 1 1 7, 39 P.2d 150. "Bad faith" and "fraud" are synonymous, and also synonyms of dishonesty. infidelity, faithlessness, perfidy, unfairness, etc.