Trump "Tearing U.S. Apart"?

[Notanumber]

Do appeasers believe that they will be treated any better than any other infidel will be when the West becomes a caliphate?

 

[metis]

I totally disagree with @tytlyf 's opinion that everyone that voted contrary to his own position must have been deceived.

To a limited extent, I agree with you, but as you know and realized yourself as you went through this pre-election evaluation, Trump was giving more than enough indications that he had some rather serious "issues".

And yet I do cut some who voted for him some slack since, as you say above, there were other things at stake, including many who simply could not vote for Hillary. Also, not all people focus in on the news as some others do.

But at this point in time, now based on what we have seen Trump do over and over again, I will not cut his current supporters any slack whatsoever. He is a walking-talking nightmare, and I simply don't see any evidence that he is likely to change.

 

[tytlyf]

Do appeasers believe that they will be treated any better than any other infidel will be when the West becomes a caliphate?

The west isn't becoming a caliphate. Which one of your media outlets told you that?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I'm no fan of Islam, but how does discrimination against Muslims fight radicalism/extremism? That would be like banning Christians to fight the KKK and other fundamentalist extremist groups. You don't defend America by destroying the values that represent America; i.e. rights, freedom, equality, justice, etc.

It's gotten to the point even I'm starting to say this is not an America I recognize. I know people effected by the Muslim ban. Trump's number of military threats are frightening as he shows himself unable to ignore the hollow and idle threats of others like Kim Jong Un. Even personally, Trump has been working to throw what protections and equalities "my group" gained under Obama out the window. And now we have neo-Nazis and white supremacists coming out of the wood works because Trump's "win" empowered and emboldened them.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I wonder if people would think it's more fair/accurate to say that while Trump certainly didn't cause the problems tearing America apart, he is doing a fine job at exacerbating these problems?

 

[idav]

Except if there is a divide in the U.S. regarding individuals who are trans gendered it is not over whether or not they can serve, even your numbers show this. The divide concerning trans is what degree of respect should their gender construct be afforded.

Unfortunately, the fight had started. I do not think Trump made that tear. I think people did. We created the gender binary society in which we live, not Trump.

That Trump is reinforcing one more layer of discrimination hardly justifies the title one that tore apart. It was already torn. It was a necessary tear if we are going to make progress and be more accepting and accommodating.

Now whether Trump is emboldening those who were already hateful is another story. My point is, all of these problems were there. They existed. People pointed to them and others said "nah." These problems are not spontaneous. People really did hate trans people before trump, people really did hate others because of their race before Trump, people really did hate gays, and immigtants, and muslims, before Trump. There really was systemic prejudices and discrimination before Trump, people really did not trust politicians before Trump. The tears were there. There is little Trump is original enough to tear himself.

And the tears were there because we made them and we did not fix them. Consequently, Trump was able to ride hos way into office playing on this hatred.

Just the fact that your using the word 'problem' means your missing my point. It's not that I never heard about it until the first time when Trump comes on the scene.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

I gave my reasons over & over before the election.
You wanna relive that?
Then search out threads in the N Americastanian Politics forum.
I've no desire to rehash those old tedious elaborations & arguments.
If I acquiesced to one of you, then the floodgates would open for that & other ancient thoroughly beaten horses.

Relive what? Reading a post summarizing your chief objections to Clinton? Yeah, I would have been willing to read that, and I would not be reliving it. As you know, I never saw it the first time. I had never heard of RF until just before I became a member.

It doesn't matter enough to me to go hunting through untold numbers of posts on untold number of threads to see your reasons only to have you tell me that I didn't find them all and therefore have an incomplete understanding of your argument. Expecting somebody to do that is a tad unreasonable, and I'm sure you know that.

As I said, I suspect that I know why you consider Trump the lesser of evils. I suspect that I know why most if not all people that loathe Hillary do so. I was hoping to get confirmation or falsification from somebody that I thought might articulate his reasons with more than "She's a crook" or a murderer, or mafia, or Benghazi, or Travelgate, or "I just hate her face," or whatever else we're accustomed to reading. Objections like those are really all I've ever seen from anybody.

I'm content with your decision to decline to answer.

 

[metis]

As I said, I suspect that I know why you consider Trump the lesser of evils.

Yep, and the only real "smoking gun" was Hillary's e-mails that Comey, a Republican, did not warrant serious enough to even bring changes. OTOH, Trump has been fined at least several times, has lost a great many lawsuits mostly based on non-payment to sub-contractors, and who is considered a "pathological liar" even by some fellow Republicans. And this short list doesn't even get into some of the other things he's done on the personal level, nor does it include some "questionable" items now being investigated.

Me thinks the reality is that saying how supposedly awful Hillary was to justify voting for Trump is simply just a smokescreen to cover-up other motivations because no honest and sane person can actually believe that she has a worse record than he when these records are out there for all to see.

 

[Notanumber]

The west isn't becoming a caliphate. Which one of your media outlets told you that?

It will be when all opposition is shutdown.

This group have had to write an open letter to Mark Zuckerberg: On Free Speech, Islamism, and Political Correctness - Council of Ex-Muslims of Britain (CEMB)

Look at Turkey - ‘We are a Muslim country’: Turkey’s parliament speaker advocates religious constitution

Read the comments section.

Turkey’s President Calls U.S. Indictments of His Guards a ‘Scandal’

 

[idav]

It will be when all opposition is shutdown.

This group have had to write an open letter to Mark Zuckerberg: On Free Speech, Islamism, and Political Correctness - Council of Ex-Muslims of Britain (CEMB)

Look at Turkey - ‘We are a Muslim country’: Turkey’s parliament speaker advocates religious constitution

Read the comments section.

Turkey’s President Calls U.S. Indictments of His Guards a ‘Scandal’

You really don't think to highly of the 80% of the world, hey trey can be just as barbaric. Your speaking highly of them as if they have a prayer in the world, they don't. All we would need to do is spam them to hell with Darwin leaflets and media and watch the dominos fall. Violence isn't the answer, full and open source knowledge is key. Put our barbarism to a mirror.

 

[Revoltingest]

It doesn't matter enough to me to go hunting through untold numbers of posts on untold number of threads.....

And it doesn't matter enuf to me to re-state my pre-election evaluations every time someone asks.
Been there & done that.

 

[Stevicus]

As I said, I suspect that I know why you consider Trump the lesser of evils. I suspect that I know why most if not all people that loathe Hillary do so. I was hoping to get confirmation or falsification from somebody that I thought might articulate his reasons with more than "She's a crook" or a murderer, or mafia, or Benghazi, or Travelgate, or "I just hate her face," or whatever else we're accustomed to reading. Objections like those are really all I've ever seen from anybody.

I think it probably goes deeper than that. For one thing, in addition to what you listed above, she had all of Bill Clinton's political baggage to carry as well. (Even if it might seem unfair to blame Hillary for what Bill did, it's still how it goes in politics.) Plus, her fight with Sanders was somewhat bitter, which may have alienated some of the support within the Democratic Party. She was also part of the Obama Administration, so she was tarred with that brush as well.

The Democrats also lost support in the Rust Belt, and it was just a few key states which made the difference.

At best, Hillary might have been the lesser of two evils, as some might say about Trump. Some choice they gave the voters.

But really, who is she? What's so great about her? Even if she is "better than Trump," that's not really saying much. Even setting aside all the conservative mud-slinging (which can often go over the top), I have to wonder, what is it that makes people believe that she would be a great leader? She comes across as very "white bread" - bland, colorless, and completely devoid of any real personality - much like so many other corporate/machine politicians who come out of the woodwork at every election. Her only real bonus was that she was once First Lady, and it was on those coattails that she was able to finagle a stint in the Senate and then Secretary of State - a job which she didn't do very well, apparently.

She was certain hyped and puffed up in the media over the years, and she's developed quite a fan base. But I never saw her as anything special; just another politician.

Oddly enough, Trump was also somewhat hyped and puffed up in the media over the years as well. I'll admit that this is something that always bothered me. Not about Trump, but about those who ostensibly believed that he was ever worthy of news coverage. Sure, he's colorful, but in the process of the media making him a celebrity, he has also developed a fan base. Without that, then he wouldn't have had the name recognition which is also needed. So, that also has to figure in to the overall equation.

Hillary Clinton also had name recognition, but that may have also worked against her, considering who she shared her name with.

 

[dawny0826]

"The majority of Americans think Donald Trump is tearing the US apart, according to a Fox News poll.

Just 33 per cent said the US President was "drawing the country together," while 56 per cent said he was instead "tearing the country apart."

The number of voters who said they were happy with how things were going in the US has fallen to 35 per cent, the lowest score since 2013.

Mr Trump's job ratings were also negative, with 55 per cent disapproving of his work as president and 41 per cent saying they approve.

It gives him a net disapproval rating of -14 points, his worst score to date. A previous poll conducted around 100-days into his administration put his ratings at minus three points..." -- Majority of Americans think Donald Trump is tearing US apart, finds Fox News poll

Thoughts?

Trump didn't get into office on his own. Neither did Obama and Bush before him.

Americans themselves are pulling the country apart by individual choice. We're furthering division through our own bipartisan allegiance to two political parties that are too corrupt to promote unification. Both must perpetuate and sustain this illusion that it has to be "us" vs. "them" to thrive.

There's a lot of healing that's needed within our country. And, it has to start at the bottom, not the top. We continue to elect politicians who value greed, agenda and control above a constitutional America. We continue to invest far too much time defending that which isn't good for Americans in the name of bipartisan politics, while ignoring wounds that we can begin healing within our own communities and on our own.

If it's not Trump at fault, it'll be the next President who is guilty of dividing us. When you look around your own community, is the conflict as grandiose as the media portrays? Does life carry on for the most part as it always has under every president before Trump?

The responsibility to unite Americans has never been the responsibility of the President, anyway. It's ours - as individuals.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

she had all of Bill Clinton's political baggage to carry as well. (Even if it might seem unfair to blame Hillary for what Bill did, it's still how it goes in politics.)

As you probably realize, I was looking for good arguments against Hillary that justifies considering her the lesser of evils. You seem to consider that a invalid reason, as do I.

Plus, her fight with Sanders was somewhat bitter, which may have alienated some of the support within the Democratic Party.

Are you suggesting that people thought Hillary the greater of evils for that? Trump fought a vicious campaign against her, chanting "Lock her up" and calling her Crooked Hillary. If campaigning ethics were an issue for voters, why would they go over to Trump over Hillary's treatment of Sanders?

She was also part of the Obama Administration, so she was tarred with that brush as well.

Once again, an irrational reason for calling her the greater of evils.

She was certain hyped and puffed up in the media over the years

I remember her being trashed for almost thirty years.

Do you recall that in 2008, once Obama passed Hillary in the polls, Rush Limbaugh requested that Republican voters to register Democratic and vote for her in the primaries? From Rush Limbaugh Explains Why He's Urging Republicans in Texas and Ohio to Vote for Hillary Clinton on Super Tuesday 2

Limbaugh: "Texas is open. And I want Hillary to stay in this, Laura. This is too good a soap opera. We need Barack Obama bloodied up politically, and it's obvious that the Republicans are not going to do it and don't have the stomach for it. As you probably know, we're getting all kinds of memos from the RNC saying not to be critical there. Mark MacKinnon of McCain's campaign says he'll quit if they get critical over Obama. This is the presidency of the United States you're talking about. I want our party to win. I want the Democrats to lose. They're in the midst of tearing themselves apart right now. It is fascinating to watch, and it's all going to stop if Hillary loses. So yes, I'm asking to cross over and, if they can stomach it — I know it's a difficult thing to do to vote for a Clinton — but it will sustain this soap opera, and it's something I think we need."

Were you aware of that?

The media had been pummeling and pummeling Hillary relentlessly under the assumption that she would be the Democrat's 2008 presidential candidate. They had all but ignored Obama.

They had gone a little too far with Hillary in 2008, and at the last minute, had to deal with the likelihood that Obama might get the nomination, and that there wasn't time to do the same to him. They needed Hillary back in the lead and running in 2008. What else could it be that would cause Limbaugh to behave like that?

Of course, they tried to trash Obama beginning then - Reverend Wright, Tony Rezko, Bill Ayers, Muslim, birth certificate, teleprompter, cult of celebrity, etc.., but it was too little too late. He wouldn't be fully trashed until after being elected and well into his first term.

I don't believe that Obama would not have gotten the nomination without the unwitting help of the Republicans, and that he wouldn't have been so despised eight years later without this process. I offer this Limbaugh thing as evidence that this indoctrination program is real and effective, and that Hillary has long been in its sights.

Before that, they trashed John Kerry, a war hero (Swift boat, looks French). Before that, Al Gore, a man who had devoted his life to public service. And before that, Bill Clinton, ditto.

This, to me, is what determines conservative voters' opinions, and why so many despise Hillary. If I'm correct, America has a big problem. A democracy in which the results of elections are so easily manipulated by indoctrination and election tampering (voter suppression for sure, and probably electronic voting machine hacking) only appears to be a democracy.

Anyway, my working hypothesis is that there is no informed, dispassionate, well reasoned and well supported argument for this Hillary hatred, and so it is likely to be indoctrination due to incessant conservative political commentary as the above suggests. To test that hypothesis, I am asking those who call Hillary the greater of evils to give me their reasons. You can see for yourself what the results of that have been on this thread. I've seen nothing to make me think otherwise.

 

[metis]

The responsibility to unite Americans has never been the responsibility of the President, anyway. It's ours - as individuals.

It is everybody's, and this includes the POTUS, the latter of which has enhanced even more division.

There's simply no excuse for what he's been doing and saying, and the evidence for this lies with some racist elements who have strongly supported him, whereas he was very slow to denounce them or what they were doing. This is not just a partisan charge as many within his own party have also been quite critical of him for the same exact reason.

It is one of the roles of the president to show leadership in the direction that helps the country, not hurt it, but all too often he has done the latter. Even our strongest allies are very worried about our current direction under his administration, and for good reason. His approval rating in western Europe, Australia, and Japan is now down under 15% in the past poll I saw. He has upset the Canadians and Mexicans, who are our allies.

So, what has he done to supposedly bring us more together? What has he done to satisfy our allies that we have their back? What has he done to help lower-income families? What has he done to help reduce "racial" and religious bigotry? What has he done to push for more economic equality in the workplace for women?

 

[tytlyf]

It will be when all opposition is shutdown.

This group have had to write an open letter to Mark Zuckerberg: On Free Speech, Islamism, and Political Correctness - Council of Ex-Muslims of Britain (CEMB)

Look at Turkey - ‘We are a Muslim country’: Turkey’s parliament speaker advocates religious constitution

Read the comments section.

Turkey’s President Calls U.S. Indictments of His Guards a ‘Scandal’

It will be? Is this another conservative slippery slope non-argument? Thankfully, America is governed by a godless constitution. That prohibits a caliphate, sharia law, christian law, etc.

I wouldn't be so paranoid, you're wasting your emotional energy. So which one of your media outlets told you America is soon to become a caliphate?

 

[dawny0826]

It is everybody's, and this includes the POTUS, the latter of which has enhanced even more division.

There's simply no excuse for what he's been doing and saying, and the evidence for this lies with some racist elements who have strongly supported him, whereas he was very slow to denounce them or what they were doing. This is not just a partisan charge as many within his own party have also been quite critical of him for the same exact reason.

It is one of the roles of the president to show leadership in the direction that helps the country, not hurt it, but all too often he has done the latter. Even our strongest allies are very worried about our current direction under his administration, and for good reason. His approval rating in western Europe, Australia, and Japan is now down under 15% in the past poll I saw. He has upset the Canadians and Mexicans, who are our allies.

So, what has he done to supposedly bring us more together? What has he done to satisfy our allies that we have their back? What has he done to help lower-income families? What has he done to help reduce "racial" and religious bigotry? What has he done to push for more economic equality in the workplace for women?

Trump is unfit to be President. He doesn't know what the hell he's doing and yes, his actions are unacceptable.

If I wasn't clear in my previous post, let me be clear now. I have no faith in any politician produced by either major political party. Trump is a disaster. But, he's not the only one who has been guilty of fueling divisiveness.

What frightens me is that Americans elected him. Change needs to come from the bottom up, not from the top down. I believe strongly in this.

 

[metis]

But, he's not the only one who has been guilty of fueling divisiveness.

Never said he was, as I've mention in a few other posts on this thread..

Change needs to come from the bottom up, not from the top down. I believe strongly in this.

And I believe we at all levels need to pull our weight, including myself.

 

[tytlyf]

What frightens me is that Americans elected him.

America has a pathetic education system. Our representatives in government would rather spend education money on new destroyers and weapons. Bankrupting the nation in the process.

Russia didn't need to hack into election machines to change votes, they hacked the minds of the vulnerable. GOP media is responsible as well. They're still, to this day, talking about Clinton and Russian uranium.

We have a very gullible populace and the republican elitists know they can use propaganda techniques to influence how a person votes.

 

[Notanumber]

It will be? Is this another conservative slippery slope non-argument? Thankfully, America is governed by a godless constitution. That prohibits a caliphate, sharia law, christian law, etc.

I wouldn't be so paranoid, you're wasting your emotional energy. So which one of your media outlets told you America is soon to become a caliphate?

I haven’t put a timeline on it but it will come sooner rather than later.

If you don’t want to look at Turkey look at Canada.