Truth: either God exists or He don't.

[Polymath257]

They’re true and for millions of other people that have passed from death to life.

Evidence of this transition?

 

[ElishaElijah]

What you described as being my position, is not at all my position on said subject.
That is by definition a strawman.

You misjudged my motives, that was wrong and if I’m wrong about your creation views, please explain your position.

I wasn't trying.

 

[ElishaElijah]

Evidence of this transition?

Just stating the fact that my testimony of God delivering me and how He has worked in my life isn’t an isolated instance but is consistent across the world from generation to generation from Adam and Eve to this present day.

 

[37818]

Here's a more refined definition (Definition of faith | Dictionary.com):

noun
1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.

2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.

3. belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims.

4. belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.: to be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty.

5. a system of religious belief: the Christian faith; the Jewish faith.

6. the obligation of loyalty or fidelity to a person, promise, engagement, etc.: Failure to appear would be breaking faith.

Here, 1 is clearly not what we are talking about. Nor are 4,5, or 6.

So, we are left with 2 and 3. Clearly, 3 is a good match: you believe in a God and in the teachings of some religion.

But, from my point of view, 3 is a subset of 2: if you have religious faith, you have belief without proof.

In any case, faith and belief are NOT identical things. Faith has the connotation of belief without proof or belief in a religious doctrine. That is quite different than definition 1, confidence in someone or something. Confidence is supported by evidence. Religious faith is not.

Again, we disagee. I am not using the word as you are.

Noah Webster's 1828 Dictionary of American English
Faith
FAITH, n. [L. fides, fido, to trust; Gr. to persuade, to draw towards any thing, to conciliate; to believe, to obey. In the Greek Lexicon of Hederic it is said, the primitive signification of the verb is to bind and draw or lead, as signifies a rope or cable. But this remark is a little incorrect. The sense of the verb, from which that of rope and binding is derived, is to strain, to draw, and thus to bind or make fast. A rope or cable is that which makes fast. Heb.]

1. Belief; the assent of the mind to the truth of what is declared by another, resting on his authority and veracity, without other evidence; the judgment that what another states or testifies is the truth. I have strong faith or no faith in the testimony of a witness, or in what a historian narrates.

2. The assent of the mind to the truth of a proposition advanced by another; belief, or probable evidence of any kind.

3. In theology, the assent of the mind or understanding to the truth of what God has revealed. Simple belief of the scriptures, of the being and perfections of God, and of the existence, character and doctrines of Christ, founded on the testimony of the sacred writers, is called historical or speculative faith; a faith little distinguished from the belief of the existence and achievements of Alexander or of Cesar.

4. Evangelical, justifying, or saving faith, is the assent of the mind to the truth of divine revelation, on the authority of God's testimony, accompanied with a cordial assent of the will or approbation of the heart; an entire confidence or trust in God's character and declarations, and in the character and doctrines of Christ, with an unreserved surrender of the will to his guidance, and dependence on his merits for salvation. In other words, that firm belief of God's testimony, and of the truth of the gospel, which influences the will, and leads to an entire reliance on Christ for salvation.

Being justified by faith. Rom 5.

Without faith it is impossible to please God. Heb 11.

For we walk by faith, and not by sight. 2 Cor 5.

With the heart man believeth to righteousness. Rom 10.

The faith of the gospel is that emotion of the mind, which is called trust or confidence, exercised towards the moral character of God, and particularly of the Savior.

Faith is an affectionate practical confidence in the testimony of God.

Faith is an affectionate practical confidence in the testimony of God.

Faith is a firm, cordial belief in the veracity of God, in all the declarations of his word; or a full and affectionate confidence in the certainty of those things which God has declared, and because he has declared them.

5. The object of belief; a doctrine or system of doctrines believed; a system of revealed truths received by christians.

They heard only, that he who persecuted us in times past, now preacheth the faith which once he destroyed. Gal 1.

6. The promises of God, or his truth and faithfulness.

shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? Rom 3.&

7. An open profession of gospel truth.

Your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world. Rom 1.

8. A persuasion or belief of the lawfulness of things indifferent.

Hast thou faith? Have it to thyself before God. Rom 14.

9. Faithfulness; fidelity; a strict adherence to duty and fulfillment of promises.

Her failing, while her faith to me remains, I would conceal.

Children in whom is no faith. Deu 32.

10. Word or honor pledged; promise given; fidelity. He violated his plighted faith.

For you alone I broke my faith with injured Palamon.

11. Sincerity; honesty; veracity; faithfulness. We ought in good faith, to fulfill all our engagements.

12. Credibility or truth. Unusual.]

The faith of the foregoing narrative.

 

[ElishaElijah]

I'm from another country. Belgium, Europe.

I can tell you that the vast majority of us have been laughing at the US for the past 4 years and many of us think the US got of easy with the Trump exit. Most of us expected a lot worse from the orange crybaby.


And no, I can assure you that as good as nobody here buys into his mega obvious lies.
If anything, we are extremely disappointed in the fact that apparently so many americans are so gullible that they actually believe this fool.

If anything, this hurts US reputation tremendously internationally. Trump has singlehandedly done more damage to the US then anyone, or any country, ever did in the entire history of the US. And I can assure you that the damage is severe.

All bets are off now.
The silly republicans are going to vote against the impeachment and this will effectively mean that the baffoon will potentially run again in 4 years.

This puts traditional US allies in quite an awkward position. It means we can't trust the US. It means we can't count on its stability. It means that the US becomes an untrustworthy partner. It means that any treaty signed with the US is only safe for remaining years that the president that signed it sits in the white house. All bets are of when the orange, or another baffoon like him, gets back in power.

We in Europe have even come to the very scary and troublesome conclusion that even Putin's Russia, would be more trustworthy to deal with then such a US.


You guys have no idea what all this means on the international scene.

For a taste of it, go watch Trump's speech at the UN. World leaders from +100 countries, literally laughing at him. Can you imagine? The assembly of the UN laughing at the US president during a speech?

This is how far we've come.

The US. Shelved in the same category as China and Russia. Even worse, actually, because at least China and Russia are somewhat predictable.

When I read pew research the findings were mixed, people that disapproved of Trump were due to leaving the Paris climate agreement and the tariffs. A lot of people liked him and had a favorable view of the US.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

You misjudged my motives,

I've heared that line countless times before dude. This is not my first conversation on the topic.
I can smell the fear tactics a mile away.

that was wrong and if I’m wrong about your creation views, please explain your position.

Species evolved.
How abiogenesis occurred exactly is unknown.
The only plausible candidate, is a chemical process.

As such, life originating is about as "random" as H and O atoms forming a water molecule.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Just stating the fact that my testimony of God delivering me and how He has worked in my life isn’t an isolated instance but is consistent across the world from generation to generation from Adam and Eve to this present day.

So you're just going to ignore the many many many MANY religious "experiences" from countless people, both today as throughout history, that don't fit your particular brand of theism?

Off course, if you only count the hits and ignore all the misses, yes, then you can say that things are "consistent".

Tell it to Tom Cruise, who's an Operating Thetan.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

When I read pew research the findings were mixed, people that disapproved of Trump were due to leaving the Paris climate agreement and the tariffs. A lot of people liked him and had a favorable view of the US.

It seems you're not getting it at all. Obviously you'll find right wing idiots in every country.

Things like this, is what I mean:

https://twitter.com/ianbremmer/stat...fter-video-shows-leaders-laughing-at-him.html

Such scenes are unheared of at such high-level summits.
Yet they happen all the time when Trump is involved. The internet is filled with such "incidents".

Leaders of France, Canada, Germany, the UK, The Netherlands, Belgium, ...

Even the entire Nato assembly during his speech. He even paused for a second and said "well, I didn't expect that reaction, but that's ok" followed by even more laughter.

They see him as a clown. As Biden said: he's an embarrassment. And a dangerous one, at that.

 

[ElishaElijah]

I've heared that line countless times before dude. This is not my first conversation on the topic.
I can smell the fear tactics a mile away.



Species evolved.
How abiogenesis occurred exactly is unknown.
The only plausible candidate, is a chemical process.

As such, life originating is about as "random" as H and O atoms forming a water molecule.

 

[ElishaElijah]

Well it’s not fear tactics so your smell is off, also since you mentioned your views on origin of life I stick to my original comment.

 

[ElishaElijah]

So you're just going to ignore the many many many MANY religious "experiences" from countless people, both today as throughout history, that don't fit your particular brand of theism?

Off course, if you only count the hits and ignore all the misses, yes, then you can say that things are "consistent".

Tel

So you're just going to ignore the many many many MANY religious "experiences" from countless people, both today as throughout history, that don't fit your particular brand of theism?

Off course, if you only count the hits and ignore all the misses, yes, then you can say that things are "consistent".

Tell it to Tom Cruise, who's an Operating Thetan.

l it to Tom Cruise, who's an Operating Thetan.

Don’t have any experience with those people of other religions but I have been at a lot of baptisms and the testimonies are different but consistent with believers is what I’m saying. Being born again, passing from death to life is consistent with believers in Jesus Christ.

 

[ElishaElijah]

It seems you're not getting it at all. Obviously you'll find right wing idiots in every country.

Things like this, is what I mean:

https://twitter.com/ianbremmer/status/1202047174793682944?ref_src=twsrc^tfw|twcamp^tweetembed|twterm^1202047174793682944|twgr^|twcon^s1_c10&ref_url=https://www.theweek.in/news/world/2019/12/04/trump-to-leave-nato-summit-early-after-video-shows-leaders-laughing-at-him.html

Such scenes are unheared of at such high-level summits.
Yet they happen all the time when Trump is involved. The internet is filled with such "incidents".

Leaders of France, Canada, Germany, the UK, The Netherlands, Belgium, ...

Even the entire Nato assembly during his speech. He even paused for a second and said "well, I didn't expect that reaction, but that's ok" followed by even more laughter.

They see him as a clown. As Biden said: he's an embarrassment. And a dangerous one, at that.

It seems you're not getting it at all. Obviously you'll find right wing idiots in every country.

Things like this, is what I mean:

https://twitter.com/ianbremmer/status/1202047174793682944?ref_src=twsrc^tfw|twcamp^tweetembed|twterm^1202047174793682944|twgr^|twcon^s1_c10&ref_url=https://www.theweek.in/news/world/2019/12/04/trump-to-leave-nato-summit-early-after-video-shows-leaders-laughing-at-him.html

Such scenes are unheared of at such high-level summits.
Yet they happen all the time when Trump is involved. The internet is filled with such "incidents".

Leaders of France, Canada, Germany, the UK, The Netherlands, Belgium, ...

Even the entire Nato assembly during his speech. He even paused for a second and said "well, I didn't expect that reaction, but that's ok" followed by even more laughter.

They see him as a clown. As Biden said: he's an embarrassment. And a dangerous one, at that.

Wouldn’t use a quote from Biden saying he is an embarrassment or use Twitter as a source. Pew research wasn’t a pro Trump article and I thought it was a balanced view.

 

[Trailblazer]

“Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.”
(John 14:1-3)

Those verses are not Jesus saying he will come back to earth again. I have already analyzed and responded to Christians regarding these verses so I already have an explanation saved in a Word document.

John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

When Jesus said “I will come again” He was not referring to His physical body coming again. Jesus said that His work was finished here and He was no more in the world: (John 14:19, John 17:4, John 17:11).

Since Jesus said He was no more in the world and the world would see Him no more we know that when He said "and receive you unto myself" He was not talking about His physical body, but rather He was referring to His spirit.

I believe that the spirit of Jesus did come again, in the Person of Baha'u'llah who was the return of Christ that Jesus promised. So when Jesus said I will come again, He meant He would send His Spirit, and we see that in the verses that follow in John 14. Jesus promised not to leave us comfortless and then He said He would send the Comforter. The Comforter refers to the person who would be the return of Christ. So when Jesus said I will come again, He meant He would send His spirit in the person of the Comforter who would do what it says in John 14:26.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.

"and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also” is referring to heaven, not earth, because Jesus was going to heaven to prepare a place in heaven, not on earth. Jesus was preparing a place in heaven so they could be with him in heaven.

John 14:3 is one of the most misunderstood verses in the New Testament so it is no wonder the Bible commentaries do not agree on what it means.

Also, you are ignoring the Son of Man verses. If you link the Son of Man verses to refer to Jesus then he will return. You have to prove to Christians that Jesus isn't the Son of Man.

Jesus was the Son of Man but He is not the Son of Man in the clouds referred to in the verses.

I already addressed this, but it fell on deaf ears because Christians want ONLY Jesus, and they believe that just because they want Him to return to earth that will make him return to earth. Just think about how it would even be possible for the same Jesus who walked the earth 2,000 years ago to return to earth. That would require that Jesus actually rose from the dead and got a glorified body as Christians believe, and then that body defied gravity and rose up to heaven in the clouds and will return in the clouds. Christians cannot understand how absurd that is because they were completely brainwashed by the Church. At least JWs do not have such a belief and I credit them for that.

Please read what I posted on this thread.

Who is the Son of man who will come in the clouds of heaven?

Maybe since you do not have confirmation bias you will understand why Jesus cannot be the Son of Man that is going to come in the clouds.

Then you are making as if the Christians only take Jesus words into account as if his word is all that matters. The majority of the NT does not consist of Jesus words but those of his followers, and they say that he will return.

That is a valid point and a good one. Why should they believe Jesus’ followers?

Then you have Jesus words in Revelation in which he says he is coming.

No, we do not have that in Revelation since Jesus did not write the Book of Revelation.

What you seem to be pointing out is not Christians twisting scriptures, as there are scriptures that mention that Jesus will return, but you are disputing the context of John vs the context of the rest of the scriptures,

No, there are no scriptures that say that the same man Jesus will return in the same body and that is the only thing I am disputing. That is a Christian belief but it is not based upon the scriptures. It is based upon what Christians want.

 

[Trailblazer]

“Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.”
(John 14:1-3)

I already addressed John 14 in my last post.

Matthew 24:1-51 ESV / 187 helpful votes
Jesus left the temple and was going away, when his disciples came to point out to him the buildings of the temple. But he answered them, “You see all these, do you not? Truly, I say to you, there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.” As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the close of the age?” And Jesus answered them, “See that no one leads you astray. For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will lead many astray. ...

Matthew 24 is not Jesus saying He will return; it is Jesus warning that many will try to lead them astray. Indeed, many men have come and said they were Christ so that is why Jesus said that.

List of people claimed to be Jesus

Baha’u’llah never claimed to be the Christ, He only ever claimed to be the return of the Christ Spirit in another human frame, so if anything those verses are evidence for Baha’u’llah, not against Him.

Revelation 22:12 ESV / 181 helpful votes
“Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay everyone for what he has done.

Revelation 3:11 ESV / 106 helpful votes
I am coming soon. Hold fast what you have, so that no one may seize your crown.

Jesus did not say that, as Jesus did not write the Book of Revelation. Moreover, it does not say "I am coming soon in the resurrected body I ascended in." I am coming soon refers to the return of the Christ Spirit, not the same man Jesus.

verse where Jesus links himself to the son of man:

John 6:50-71 ESV / 118 helpful votes
This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.” The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. ...

I never disputed that Jesus was the Son of Man, Baha’u’llah even refers to Jesus as the Son of Man:
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 85-86

Then read Matthew 24 in which Jesus talks about the Son of Man, himself, returning.

Matthew 24:2-5 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

There is NOTHING in Matthew 24 where Jesus says He is going to return to earth. Please note how Jesus did not answer that He was coming back to earth when He was asked. That is a dead giveaway in and of itself that Jesus was not planning to return. All Jesus said in those verses was to warn that men would come trying to deceive people and they surely have done so, as I said above, List of people claimed to be Jesus but that does not mean that Baha’u’llah was a deceiver as it is illogical to say that just because there were many false prophets therefore all prophets are false.

 

[paarsurrey]

I don't get one exactly. Please elaborate.
Right friend, please?

Regards

 

[paarsurrey]

It was your claim, you need to provide reliable sources. Do you know what people that are wrong often do? They try to claim that the evidence is out there and then refuse to deliver it. If there was reliable evidence you would almost certainly have provided some.

Just Google and one will get a lot of it.
One may try <Jesus in Kashmir,India(BBC Documentary)-1> to start with, please.

Regards

 

[Subduction Zone]

Just Google and one will get a lot of it.
One may try <Jesus in Kashmir,India(BBC Documentary)-1> to start with, please.

Regards

There are all sorts of legends about Elvis too.

 

[Trailblazer]

So it wrong to suggest the there's anything plain about scripture, the opposite it true. They are impossible to understand by those who don't have the Holy Spirit indwelling them.

How do you know I don't have the Holy Spirit?
How do you know that you do?

 

[Trailblazer]

It's all in my Bible, so you must have the unauthorised version.

I read only authorized versions of the Bible.
It is nowhere in any Bible, authorized or unauthorized.
Jesus is NEVER going to return to earth and that's why all the prophecies for the return of Christ have been fulfilled and still no Jesus.

 

[paarsurrey]

There's no plain meaning in scripture. the scriptures are a spiritual message, so they can only be discerned by those who are ind welled by the Holy Spirit. The rest are bound to get them wrong and they are a curse to them.

So it wrong to suggest the there's anything plain about scripture, the opposite it true. They are impossible to understand by those who don't have the Holy Spirit indwelling them.

" it wrong to suggest the there's anything plain about scripture"

And this is specifically true about the anonymous Gospels named after the disciples of Jesus just for credulity else it has nothing to do with Jesus s/o Mary or his disciples, rather the Pauline-Scriptures are against, I understand, the teaching of Jesus s/o Mary, please. Right friend, please?

Regards