Ukraine has become a dictatorship, it's official

[Estro Felino]

But perhaps that is why many were not so fond of Russia joining NATO after the USSR broke up, given they might have required some assurance that Russia was indeed capable of being in the same century as others when all the indications were that it just wasn't. What, with all the oligarchs taking their slices out of Russia and no one to stop them - apart from taking their own percentage.

Considering we have let Turkey in...I see this reasoning reeking of doublestandardism.

Gaga over double standards...

 

[Mock Turtle]

Considering we have let Turkey in...I see this reasoning reeking of doublestandardism.

Ga Ga for double standards...

I'm getting old but I don't remember Turkey pointing nuclear weapons at the West.

 

[Stevicus]

We already went over this. I pointed out that obviously they've already tried that. The fact that you suggest it as if it's some wise move that maybe they haven't thought of yet shows either severe dishonesty on your part of ignorance of how things work. Neither is good.

Your response before was to say "but we can hope, right", to which I already replied. Now you're going back to this again for some reason. It would be better not to keep going back and forth. Obviously they've tried diplomacy. That failed before the invasion, because Russia isn't interested. Putin wanted this war. It's probably taken more out of them that he expected, but he probably still sees it as a net positive.

Obviously, you're against negotiating a peace settlement and want Ukraine to fight to the last man. You seem to want war more than anyone. You don't even want to hope for a possible settlement.

It's not good to be gripped by war fever. It clouds one's ability to think rationally.

 

[lukethethird]

I think this says it all. You thought Russia was better than this, but you didn't think the U.S. and U.K were. It's fine to be disillusioned with the U.S. and U.K. It's incredible to not think Russia is at least as bad, if not worse.

NATO are not lackey nations. The U.S. and U.K. in no way have Russia right where they want them. This is not a proxy war in that way. Russia wanted Ukraine. Putin wanted a war to drum up support. That's the cause of them invading Ukraine. Russians and Ukrainians are dying because of that, not because of anything NATO, or America or Britain have done.

And this is exactly why people point out that you support Russia. Your bias is anti-west and pro-Russia.

I stated "not really" as regards to the standards. I know the narrative, Putin woke up one morning and decided it was a fine day to expand Russia for the sake of expanding Russia, and since I don't buy into that claptrap I am a Russian supporter. McCarthyism 2.0.

 

[lukethethird]

I'm getting old but I don't remember Turkey pointing nuclear weapons at the west.

The U.S. Army deployed nuclear-capable Honest John missiles in Turkey from 1959 until the early 1990s.


Nuclear Weapons and Turkey Since 1959 | National Security Archive

 

[lukethethird]

Obviously, you're against negotiating a peace settlement and want Ukraine to fight to the last man. You seem to want war more than anyone. You don't even want to hope for a possible settlement.

It's not good to be gripped by war fever. It clouds one's ability to think rationally.

Russia phobia is real for some people and I am beginning to think that some people are so fearful that they feel safe knowing that people in far away lands are sacrificing themselves to protect them.

 

[Kathryn]

TRUE STORY TIME!

In the 1960s my dad visited Turkey as an Air Force officer, with a group of other Air Force officers. One of them was a woman, and she had her purse stolen, so she reported it as stolen. She as absolutely horrified when the police told her they had tracked down the thief, who was an 11 year old girl! I mean, the purse wasn't worth much and only contained about $3. The police sent this young girl to a sex slave house, where she was expected to send the woman enough money each month to pay off her debt. By now the American woman said "No thank you, no thank you!" but she did receive two payments totalling $2, and then she heard that was all she was going to get because the girl had died. Sheeze! Talk about blood money.

 

[Stevicus]

Russia phobia is real for some people and I am beginning to think that some people are so fearful that they feel safe knowing that people in far away lands are sacrificing themselves to protect them.

I think there are rational solutions to the problems of conflict and discord in this world, but unfortunately, our national leaders tend to embrace that which is irrational and oftentimes ludicrous. I don't know if there are actual, genuine fears of Russia, or if it's just a put on - a way of "pointing out the enemy to keep us deaf and blind."

 

[lukethethird]

I think there are rational solutions to the problems of conflict and discord in this world, but unfortunately, our national leaders tend to embrace that which is irrational and oftentimes ludicrous. I don't know if there are actual, genuine fears of Russia, or if it's just a put on - a way of "pointing out the enemy to keep us deaf and blind."

Our governments are in the protection racket, that is what they sell us, protection. Right now we need to be protected from the big bogeyman that is Russia. I think some members of the public buy into the fears perpetrated upon us and really believe that our governments are fighting for democracy, war after war after war. War is big business, it makes billionaires at the expense of taxpayers.

 

[Mock Turtle]

The U.S. Army deployed nuclear-capable Honest John missiles in Turkey from 1959 until the early 1990s.


Nuclear Weapons and Turkey Since 1959 | National Security Archive

Have you a problem with which side Turkey was on? It was Russia that had several decades of antagonism towards the West so it is quite understandable that some time might have to pass to have them trusted - but where Putin apparently didn't like this, so set off on his own path.

 

[QuestioningMind]

That is based on pure speculation. I am not privy to Putin's inner thoughts nor to how he and his inner circle go about their strategies. They were foolish enough to send the troops into Ukraine because now they are bogged down in a proxy war with the US and it's nato lackeys. Is it worth gambling with Ukraine lives and a possible escalation by nato forces, all based on our guesses as to what Putin and his inner circle have in mind for the rest of the world?

It's speculation based upon Putin's prior actions. A recent poll in Ukraine indicates that 86% of the populations thinks that if they DO negotiate a treaty with Russia that Putin will break the treaty... just like he did when he broke the treaty that was signed when Ukraine agreed to give up their nukes if Russia promised to NEVER invade.

 

[lukethethird]

It's speculation based upon Putin's prior actions. A recent poll in Ukraine indicates that 86% of the populations thinks that if they DO negotiate a treaty with Russia that Putin will break the treaty... just like he did when he broke the treaty that was signed when Ukraine agreed to give up their nukes if Russia promised to NEVER invade.

The US backed coup that overthrew a democratically elected government in Ukraine may have been a factor in the change of direction. Zelenski ran for office on the platform that he would make peace with Russia, won the election by a landslide, and then did a 180 once he was elected. I wonder how many Ukraines trust him. I guess they will never know since Zelenski did away with opposition parties by making them illegal and he did away with elections.

OK, so a yes, you are willing to gamble with Ukraine lives even though Ukraine has no hope of regaining the lost territory.

 

[QuestioningMind]

The US backed coup that overthrew a democratically elected government in Ukraine may have been a factor in the change of direction. Zelenski ran for office on the platform that he would make peace with Russia, won the election by a landslide, and then did a 180 once he was elected. I wonder how many Ukraines trust him. I guess they will never know since Zelenski did away with opposition parties by making them illegal and he did away with elections.

OK, so a yes, you are willing to gamble with Ukraine lives even though Ukraine has no hope of regaining the lost territory.

Wow, could you be any more one-sided about all this? You sound like a Russian propogandist. All you do is talk about how Zelenski should 'make peace' with Russia, when Putin could 'make peace' with the Ukraine at ANY TIME by simply withdrawing his invasion forces. Why should anyone think that Putin will abide by any treaty, when he blatantly broke the last one?

All you've done is try and make excuses for a violent power hungry dictator, while pretending to care so very much about the poor Ukrainians that he's brutalizing.

 

[lukethethird]

Wow, could you be any more one-sided about all this? You sound like a Russian propogandist. All you do is talk about how Zelenski should 'make peace' with Russia, when Putin could 'make peace' with the Ukraine at ANY TIME by simply withdrawing his invasion forces. Why should anyone think that Putin will abide by any treaty, when he blatantly broke the last one?

All you've done is try and make excuses for a violent power hungry dictator, while pretending to care so very much about the poor Ukrainians that he's brutalizing.

I am pointing out that neither Putin or Zelenski can be trusted. What should Ukraine do, cut their losses or keep losing?

 

[QuestioningMind]

I am pointing out that neither Putin or Zelenski can be trusted. What should Ukraine do, cut their losses or keep losing?

What should Russia do, cut their losses or keep on losing? Putin claimed he'd have control of Ukraine within ten days... been more than two years now and he's STILL failing. I think you want Ukraine to give up, because you know your precious Putin is too inept to ever win. He's already sacrificed hundreds of thousands of his troops and tanked his economy in this egotistical power-grab. Hopefully the Russian people will finally rise up and eliminate him before he brings the entire country to ruin.

 

[lukethethird]

What should Russia do, cut their losses or keep on losing? Putin claimed he'd have control of Ukraine within ten days... been more than two years now and he's STILL failing. I think you want Ukraine to give up, because you know your precious Putin is too inept to ever win. He's already sacrificed hundreds of thousands of his troops and tanked his economy in this egotistical power-grab. Hopefully the Russian people will finally rise up and eliminate him before he brings the entire country to ruin.

If that were true, then it would be advisable for Putin to cut his losses.

 

[Magic Man]

But Russia has not applied to join the EU. Ukraine has.
So...well...they really need to exit the Middle Ages and become a democratic state, if they want to become a EU member state.

1) They are a democracy. They postponed elections this one time because they're being invaded.

2) Whether or not Russia has applied to join the EU is irrelevant. That's not what you're talking about. You're criticizing Ukraine for postponing their elections, but you love Putin and Russia, and they haven't had a legitimate election in a long time. It's a double standard.

 

[Magic Man]

Putin meets PM of Hungary, Orban

For promoting peace. Thoughts?

One brutal dictator meeting another dictator who wants to be just like him. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here.

 

[Magic Man]

Obviously, you're against negotiating a peace settlement and want Ukraine to fight to the last man. You seem to want war more than anyone. You don't even want to hope for a possible settlement.

It's not good to be gripped by war fever. It clouds one's ability to think rationally.

*facepalm*

Are you simply not capable of an honest exchange? I guess I assumed I could expect better than this nonsense.

As I've pointed out several times, we're all for peace. The difference is some of us are for actual peace, which is Russia ending its invasion and going home. You're for giving Russia at least a partial win in order to get "peace". Ukraine disagrees with you. Maybe you should take up your "just give Russia what it wants, and then you'll have what I call peace" with them, instead of coming on here and dishonestly accusing others of warmongering in order to try to "win" an argument, rather than engaging in honest discussion.

If all you're going to do is keep posting such drivel, please don't.

 

[Magic Man]

I stated "not really" as regards to the standards. I know the narrative, Putin woke up one morning and decided it was a fine day to expand Russia for the sake of expanding Russia, and since I don't buy into that claptrap I am a Russian supporter. McCarthyism 2.0.

"I know the narrative." *Proceeds to throw out a strawman displaying quite clearly he does not in fact know the narrative.*

As I already explained, and you went ahead and completely ignored:

Putin didn't wake up one day and decide to invade Ukraine. He saw an opportunity and took it. He wanted to drum up more support at a time when it was lagging, and with Russia's history with Ukraine, he slyly supported a tiny group of people in Donbas, which then led to a full out invasion, because he could use justifications that apparently people even outside of Russia buy, for some reason. I had assumed that it was only Russians who didn't have access to outside sources who would buy into the very obvious propaganda he produces, but here you, Katrhyn, Stevicus and others are buying right into it.

You're a Russian supporter because you do buy into the claptrap. The claptrap is Russian Propaganda. Pointing out that your actual words right here clearly support Russia is not McCarthyism. That's one of the weakest attempts I've ever seen to dismiss legitimate criticism.