Ukraine has become a dictatorship, it's official

[Magic Man]

Russia phobia is real for some people and I am beginning to think that some people are so fearful that they feel safe knowing that people in far away lands are sacrificing themselves to protect them.

Yes, fear of an a clear and present threat is real for people who aren't blind to it. Apparently there are some who buy into Russian propaganda, and so don't realize that Russia is a major threat, and that their invasion of Ukraine is wrong and dangerous. It's sad to see people buy into such obvious propaganda, but I guess it shouldn't be too surprising.

 

[Magic Man]

The US backed coup that overthrew a democratically elected government in Ukraine may have been a factor in the change of direction.

Or not.

Zelenski ran for office on the platform that he would make peace with Russia, won the election by a landslide, and then did a 180 once he was elected.

Nope.

I wonder how many Ukraines trust him. I guess they will never know since Zelenski did away with opposition parties by making them illegal and he did away with elections.

Nope.

OK, so a yes, you are willing to gamble with Ukraine lives even though Ukraine has no hope of regaining the lost territory.

Nope. Ukraine is willing to gamble with Ukrainian lives in the hope of not being fully invaded by Russia and not giving them part of their country, which would only embolden them.

 

[Revoltingest]

Are you simply not capable of an honest exchange? I guess I assumed I could expect better than this nonsense.

For some here, their foundational belief
is that Russia is in the right. They can't
come out & admit this. So they peck
at Ukraine.

 

[Stevicus]

*facepalm*

Are you simply not capable of an honest exchange? I guess I assumed I could expect better than this nonsense.

As I've pointed out several times, we're all for peace. The difference is some of us are for actual peace, which is Russia ending its invasion and going home. You're for giving Russia at least a partial win in order to get "peace". Ukraine disagrees with you. Maybe you should take up your "just give Russia what it wants, and then you'll have what I call peace" with them, instead of coming on here and dishonestly accusing others of warmongering in order to try to "win" an argument, rather than engaging in honest discussion.

If all you're going to do is keep posting such drivel, please don't.

Well, I don't think we'll convince each other of anything, at least not on this issue, and there's not much more to be said.

But just for the record, I'm not telling Ukraine what to do, nor am I telling Russia what to do. I can't tell the Russians to leave Ukraine any more than Biden or NATO can. They're not leaving, so unless they can be forced out militarily, that's the situation as it stands. At the end of the day, if they want to go on fighting, it's up to them. I just hope that we stay out of it and it doesn't escalate. There are larger issues here.

 

[Stevicus]

For some here, their foundational belief
is that Russia is in the right. They can't
come out & admit this. So they peck
at Ukraine.

For some here, their foundational belief is to jump to conclusions about other posters without basis.

 

[Revoltingest]

For some here....

Trying to sound clever again, eh.
Your posting history is that of praising the USSR.
Modern Russia seeks to reclaim that expansive glory.
So you defend.
This pattern speaks more clearly than your claims.

 

[lukethethird]

For some here, their foundational belief is to jump to conclusions about other posters without basis.

The McCarthyites here believe that criticising Ukraine means supporting Russia when in reality there isn't a nickel's worth of difference between Russia and Ukraine, both countries were part of the Soviet Union and both countries are as corrupt as the other.

 

[lukethethird]

Or not.

Nope.

Nope.

Nope. Ukraine is willing to gamble with Ukrainian lives in the hope of not being fully invaded by Russia and not giving them part of their country, which would only embolden them.

I see no argument from you.

 

[Revoltingest]

....there isn't a nickel's worth of difference between Russia and Ukraine,

Right....not the case that one invaded
the other to destroy, kill, & conquer.

 

[lukethethird]

Right....not the case that one invaded
the other to destroy, kill, & conquer.

Neither side was lily white leading up to the time Russia's troops went in. In fact, this conflict was predicted decades ago. All sides are equally to blame for the lead up which is why the blame game is pointless.

 

[Revoltingest]

Neither side was lily white leading up to the time Russia's troops went in.

Justifying Russia's invasion again, eh.

 

[lukethethird]

Justifying Russia's invasion again, eh.

There is no justifying it. It is a war crime just as it was a war crime to invade Iraq. There is no getting around it.

 

[Revoltingest]

....just as it was a war crime to invade Iraq. There is no getting around it.

Then why deflect from Russia's culpability?

 

[QuestioningMind]

If that were true, then it would be advisable for Putin to cut his losses.

He should, but he won't, because his massive ego won't allow him to. The only solution is for the Russian people to boot him out.

 

[Stevicus]

Trying to sound clever again, eh.
Your posting history is that of praising the USSR.
Modern Russia seeks to reclaim that expansive glory.
So you defend.
This pattern speaks more clearly than your claims.

Your characterization of my posting history notwithstanding, I would say that I've had the same observation about your responses to my posts in the past. I could just as easily turn it around and say that it's not because I'm defending or praising them, as much as it's not being so rabidly anti-Russian as some seem to expect that I should be.

For what it's worth, the reason it might sound that way to you is because I'm aware of past instances where we could have gotten off on a better foot with the Russians, but our relationship soured. We currently have poor relations with Russia. This does not bode well for international relations, not just between Russia and the West, but throughout the world. There's no need for this brinkmanship.

 

[lukethethird]

Then why deflect from Russia's culpability?

Some posters read into my posts what they want to read. Blaming nato or Ukraines for their role in this is read to mean I support Russia when nothing could be further from the truth. The world is not black and white and there are no good sides vs bad sides in all of this. I don't have a hatred for Russians and Ukrainians because their countries are full of corruption, I'm indifferent, besides it's not like they are the only peoples that have to deal with corrupt politicians. I could end up hating the whole world if that were the case, although I do view the world as a madhouse.

 

[Revoltingest]

Some posters read into my posts what they want to read.

And some posts only allude to what they really believe.

 

[Stevicus]

The McCarthyites here believe that criticising Ukraine means supporting Russia when in reality there isn't a nickel's worth of difference between Russia and Ukraine, both countries were part of the Soviet Union and both countries are as corrupt as the other.

It's a variation on the refrain of "those who are not with us are against us." McCarthyism was similar in that it took the same stance on an ideological basis, which also targeted liberals, progressives, and civil rights leaders whose economic views and sympathies for poor people made them appear to be communist dupes or "useful idiots," if not outright agents of Moscow, in the eyes of U.S. policymakers and others of influence.

Nowadays, since Russia has gone full tilt into capitalism, they are no longer viewed as an "ideological" threat, per se, but more of a right-wing nationalistic threat. The Ukrainians also seem to be displaying a great deal of nationalism as well.

The Western position seems more a legalistic one than anything else. Russia did invade Ukraine, which is a violation of the UN Charter and other international treaties prohibiting aggressive invasion. Legally, the Russians are wrong, so they should just withdraw, and that's the West's first and final word on the whole matter. They violated international law, they broke international agreements and treaties. They're as guilty as a cat in a goldfish bowl, from the West's perspective. I understand this, and I acknowledge that it's true.

But I also know that it's also a war. If lawyers could win wars, the U.S. would have conquered the world a long time ago.

 

[Kathryn]

Did y'all know that Ukraine didn't even want to be a part of NATO till a few years ago?

 

[Revoltingest]

The McCarthyites here believe that criticising Ukraine means supporting Russia....

Criticism is fine, if accurate.
But when the criticism is used for the purpose
of deflecting from Russia's violent conquest,
then it's something else, ie, whataboutist
defense of Russian aggression.