Ukraine has become a dictatorship, it's official

[Magic Man]

The McCarthyites here believe that criticising Ukraine means supporting Russia when in reality there isn't a nickel's worth of difference between Russia and Ukraine, both countries were part of the Soviet Union and both countries are as corrupt as the other.

1) There are no McCarthyites here. That's just you attempting to deflect legitimate criticism. Sadly for you, it doesn't actually work. The other Russia supporters here will buy into it, but then you guys buy into Russian propaganda, so that's not surprising.

2) The problem here hasn't been at all about criticizing Ukraine. That's complete nonsense. My part started here with Stevicus claiming Russia expands for defense, not offense, and wants to establish a buffer zone because the mean old west keeps trying to invade. Further, none of the many exchanges here focus on Ukraine or whether they're good or bad.

3) The fact that you pretend there's no difference between Russia and Ukraine is exactly why we keep pointing out that you're supporting Russia. Both being part of the USSR means absolutely nothing. Russia is the former USSR. The other countries are the ones that broke away. Whether or not there is corruption in Ukraine is irrelevant. They are not the ones invading other countries.

Russia is invading a sovereign country. That's the problem here. Not corruption in government.

 

[Magic Man]

There is no justifying it. It is a war crime just as it was a war crime to invade Iraq. There is no getting around it.

I'm glad you can finally at least admit this. Now just stop defending the invasion and Russia in your other posts, and we'll be good.

 

[Magic Man]

Your characterization of my posting history notwithstanding, I would say that I've had the same observation about your responses to my posts in the past. I could just as easily turn it around and say that it's not because I'm defending or praising them, as much as it's not being so rabidly anti-Russian as some seem to expect that I should be.

Nope, it's because you're defending them.

"Russia has historically expanded for defensive purposes and to create a buffer zone."

That's defense. That's not not being "rabidly anti-Russian". It's making false claims that defend Russian expansion. You don't have to be rabidly anti-Russian, just not solidly pro-Russian.

 

[Magic Man]

There is no justifying it. It is a war crime just as it was a war crime to invade Iraq. There is no getting around it.

I'm glad you can finally at least admit this. Now just stop defending the invasion and Russia in your other posts, and we'll be good.

 

[Magic Man]

Yes, Russia is guilty and the fact that the threat of nato going into Ukraine was a direct provocation, does not get Putin off the hook. As threatened as he felt by the thought of western missiles right on his border makes no difference, he's guilty of war crimes for sending the troops in. Unfortunately, diplomacy appears to be a thing of the past, there appears to be no diplomats representing any of the countries involved.

This is so close. Just two little things.

1) There was no "threat of NATO going into Ukraine". Ukraine wanted to join NATO. That's not a provocation. They wanted to do that because of the threat of Russia. And NATO doesn't "go into" a country. A country becomes part of NATO.

2) There is diplomacy, but it's hard to hash out a deal with a dictator intent on stirring up a conflict. Putin wanted this, which is why he started and escalated it. Very little would have dissuaded him from it. It's not for a lack of trying.

 

[Magic Man]

Yes, though even acknowledging this is not sufficient for some of the hardheads. They believe that anyone who says anything less than "Russia is evil" and "Putin is Hitler" is automatically giving "praise" and "support" to Russia.

Nope. I just acknowledged that that was enough. The problem is that the rest of his and your posts say something completely different from that post. It might help to actually listen to us, so you can understand what we're actually saying. Of course that would mean dropping these stupid strawmen and not trying to "win" an argument.

 

[Stevicus]

You use a very low standard of "proof".

It proves that you're not even bothering to read the posts you label as "histrionics in defense of Mother Russia," even though it was a post critical of Russia's actions, not defending them.

So, in your eyes, strongly criticizing and condemning Russia is the same thing as "praising" them. Got it.

 

[Stevicus]

Unbelievably so, yes.

What do you think you're catching us on?

Jumping to conclusions.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Jumping to conclusions.

You mean, reaching conclusions based on what people say, what people do, and the history of their actions?

Meanwhile, your conclusion that a country with a lot of land would never want more land is perfectly sensible?

 

[Estro Felino]

It proves that you're not even bothering to read the posts you label as "histrionics in defense of Mother Russia," even though it was a post critical of Russia's actions, not defending them.

So, in your eyes, strongly criticizing and condemning Russia is the same thing as "praising" them. Got it.

I appreciate your patience and intellectual honesty, while debating.
Very lordly.

 

[Stevicus]

That's true. You won't convince me of the Russian propaganda, and I apparently won't convince you of the reality. Mostly at this point I'm just commenting so that if someone else reads, they will get the real story.

The real story from you? Hmm...

Ukraine clearly wants to keep fighting rather than give Russia what they want. You're saying they shouldn't do that. I'm saying it's their decision.

Yes, I just said that, too, as I've been saying all along.

I hope we don't stay out of it. I hope we keep helping and that Ukraine wins. Because I'm more interested in justice than peace at all costs. I hope it doesn't escalate, but we can't just give Russia everything it wants in an effort to appease them and avoid WWIII.

Yes, I think this is quite apparent. This is a familiar refrain we've heard over and over. We've heard it regarding Korea, Vietnam, Nicaragua, Grenada, Iraq. Right-wing warmongers have dominated U.S. foreign policy for so long that it's permeated throughout all sectors and factions.

 

[Estro Felino]

Nope. There isn't dictatorial rule as it is, so it stands to reason that it wouldn't then happen for years to come.

Tell me a time limit, then.
Because there was the 100 year war in France, ....many centuries ago. So a war can last forever.

The fact that you state this means nothing you say on the subject can be taken seriously. Your ability to speak Russian is immaterial. I can speak Russian too, but that's also immaterial.

Putin is a dictator. Their elections are a sham. They're only for show. That's how he gets 88% of the vote. You've bought fully into Russian propaganda.

No...I know Russian, and we Italians have much more in common with Russians than we have with Americans.
Being both European nations with a long history.

 

[Estro Felino]

Whether or not Orban was originally elected is irrelevant. He is a dictator and wants to be Putin.

He is not a dictator.
He was elected with the same electoral system that exists in my country.
So are we a dictatorship too?

Zelenskyy was also elected. His mandate hasn't expired.

In Ukraine there is no freedom of speech.
There is no freedom of press.
There is no freedom of saying no to conscription.
There is no freedom of emigrating to EU countries.
There is no freedom. Period.

I have some news for you. The EU leaders smile at him whenever they see Mr Zely...but you have no idea of what they tell about him...when he is not around.

 

[Stevicus]

Nope, it's because you're defending them.

"Russia has historically expanded for defensive purposes and to create a buffer zone."

That statement hardly "defends" them. As I suspected, you read too much into what is written, stuff that is not there.

That's defense. That's not not being "rabidly anti-Russian". It's making false claims that defend Russian expansion. You don't have to be rabidly anti-Russian, just not solidly pro-Russian.

No, it's not "defense." It's merely acknowledging that nations tend to act in their own interests, but that, in and of itself, does not prove any intention of conquering the whole world. It's because of that false belief that the West feels justified in aiding Ukraine. Because if it was just a fight between Ukrainians and Russians - and only them - then the West would not be able to justify its position. That's why the extracurricular demonization of Russia is required.

 

[Stevicus]

Nope. I just acknowledged that that was enough. The problem is that the rest of his and your posts say something completely different from that post.

If you believe that the other posts "say something completely different" from that post, then that's on you and your own reading comprehension problems. They say essentially the same thing. You seem to want to read too much into what other people say, making unwarranted extrapolations and jumping to conclusions based solely on what you feel.

It might help to actually listen to us, so you can understand what we're actually saying. Of course that would mean dropping these stupid strawmen and not trying to "win" an argument.

You're speaking of yourself, actually. I've been extraordinarily patient through this entire exchange, while enduring salvos of misinformation and wrongful accusations which have nothing to do with the subject or the facts brought forth.

 

[Stevicus]

You mean, reaching conclusions based on what people say, what people do, and the history of their actions?

Meanwhile, your conclusion that a country with a lot of land would never want more land is perfectly sensible?

I never said that they would "never want more land." This is a prime example of "jumping to conclusions."

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I never said that they would "never want more land." This is a prime example of "jumping to conclusions."

So you acknowledge that what you wrote earlier:

"It's not to increase their land and power, since they already have enough land"

was jumping to conclusions, right?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

No, it's not "defense." It's merely acknowledging that nations tend to act in their own interests, but that, in and of itself, does not prove any intention of conquering the whole world. It's because of that false belief that the West feels justified in aiding Ukraine.

Because it's not possible that there can be any good, rational reason to believe that aiding Ukraine is justified?

 

[Stevicus]

So you acknowledge that what you wrote earlier:

"It's not to increase their land and power, since they already have enough land"

was jumping to conclusions, right?

How does that entail a "conclusion that a country with a lot of land would never want more land"? It just seems extremely unlikely to attribute their motives here as simply "wanting more land."

 

[ImmortalFlame]

How does that entail a "conclusion that a country with a lot of land would never want more land"? It just seems extremely unlikely to attribute their motives here as simply "wanting more land."

Are you serious?

You're seriously going to continue defending that statement?