Ukraine has become a dictatorship, it's official

[Stevicus]

Because it's not possible that there can be any good, rational reason to believe that aiding Ukraine is justified?

I didn't say that "it's not possible," although it depends on what that "good, rational reason" might be.

 

[Stevicus]

Are you serious?

You're seriously going to continue defending that statement?

Yes, I am serious. Now, are you serious enough to answer my question?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I didn't say that "it's not possible," although it depends on what that "good, rational reason" might be.

Defending a nation against military invasion and annexation carried out by a threat to their democratic system.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Yes, I am serious. Now, are you serious enough to answer my question?

Are you not serious enough to admit that what you said was plainly absurd?

Either you admit how absurd it is, or there's no point debating with you.

 

[Magic Man]

The real story from you? Hmm...

Yup.

Yes, I just said that, too, as I've been saying all along.

No, you've been saying they should stop fighting.

Yes, I think this is quite apparent. This is a familiar refrain we've heard over and over. We've heard it regarding Korea, Vietnam, Nicaragua, Grenada, Iraq. Right-wing warmongers have dominated U.S. foreign policy for so long that it's permeated throughout all sectors and factions.

Uh, no. We didn't hear it in those cases. Those countries weren't invaded by another country that was clearly just trying to take them over. Stop trying to pretend this is the same as them.

Russia invaded Ukraine for no good reason. Ukraine is fighting to maintain their freedom/country. We're helping them do that. That's not what happened in those other cases. This one has nothing to do with right-wing warmongers. In fact the right wing is in cahoots with Russia and is fully against giving more aid to Ukraine, which in itself destroys this your line of thinking here.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Uh, no. We didn't hear it in those cases. Those countries weren't invaded by another country that was clearly just trying to take them over. Stop trying to pretend this is the same as them.

Russia invaded Ukraine for no good reason. Ukraine is fighting to maintain their freedom/country. We're helping them do that. That's not what happened in those other cases. This one has nothing to do with right-wing warmongers. In fact the right wing is in cahoots with Russia and is fully against giving more aid to Ukraine, which in itself destroys this your line of thinking here.

I have to say, equating "Korea, Vietnam, Nicaragua, Grenada, Iraq" with literally defending a democratic ally country from BEING INVADED by their neighbour by supplying them with arms really does suggest a hell of a lot of mental gymnastics. It literally does just lead to one conclusion above all others: America bad, anything America do bad, all American foreign engagement = the same, and it bad.

 

[Magic Man]

Tell me a time limit, then.
Because there was the 100 year war in France, ....many centuries ago. So a war can last forever.

When Russia stops invading them.

No...I know Russian, and we Italians have much more in common with Russians than we have with Americans.
Being both European nations with a long history.

You keep making these sweeping generalizations that most of your countrymen/women would disagree with. You like Russia, we get it. But that doesn't mean your whole country does or that they have more in common with Russia.

And regardless of that, the point is still that your claim that Russia has legitimate elections could not be more false. It's astonishingly false.

 

[Stevicus]

Defending a nation against military invasion and annexation carried out by a threat to their democratic system.

It's not so cut-and-dried as that.

 

[Debater Slayer]

The presidential elections were scheduled for March 31st, but they will not be held.
And please, spare me the martial law thing: a wartime can even last twenty years. That would make twenty years of martial law.
And by the way, martial law is itself, dictatorship, because there is no democratic vote.

Look at Russia. They are at war, but they still held elections.

1) Suspending elections during an invasion is not the same as imposing dictatorship.

2) Whether Ukraine is a dictatorship or not is irrelevant to its right to sovereignty: Putin had no right to invade it either way.

3) Russia holds sham "elections" under an actual dictatorship where any opposition to Putin is either suppressed or violently silenced (e.g., the murder of Navalny).

Was there a point to this thread other than what seems to me to be an attempt at justifying Putin's invasion by demonizing Ukraine?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

It's not so cut-and-dried as that.

That's an example of a good, rational reason to defend Ukraine.

And sometimes things are that simple. It's better that Ukraine - a nation of people who overwhelmingly support independence from Russia - remain free rather than come under Russian control. And it's also better that Russia - a belligerent, quasi-fascist state that regularly conducted wars of imperialism and annexes foreign territory - not be allowed to bully and attack their neighbours without consequence.

That is fairly cut and dried.

 

[Estro Felino]

When Russia stops invading them.

But US invaded Kosovo when it was still Serbia.
Was it rightful back then?
Or do you apply double standards ? A standard for US, another standard for Russia.

You keep making these sweeping generalizations that most of your countrymen/women would disagree with. You like Russia, we get it. But that doesn't mean your whole country does or that they have more in common with Russia.

The leftist minority...yes.
The Italian Democratic Party has lost 14 regions out of 20.
In democracy the majority matters.

And regardless of that, the point is still that your claim that Russia has legitimate elections could not be more false. It's astonishingly false.

At least Russia has more than two parties.
A two-party-system is undemocratic.

 

[Estro Felino]

1) Suspending elections during an invasion is not the same as imposing dictatorship.

Serbia was invaded by the US because she was harassing Kosovars.
That was legitimate, of course.
But what Russia did is legitimate too, because now it is Ukraine which has been harassing Donbas people since 2014.

2) Whether Ukraine is a dictatorship or not is irrelevant to its right to sovereignty: Putin had no right to invade it either way.

That's a very good point.
But Ukraine being a dictatorship has nothing to do with Russia's invasion.

Was there a point to this thread other than what seems to me to be an attempt at justifying Putin's invasion by demonizing Ukraine?

The topic here is Zelenskyy, not Russia.
If Zelenskyy thinks his own people loves him, he should renew his mandate with new election.
But he does know that his own people hates him...that's why he will be president without elections.
Like Mussolini...that remained in power for 20 years.

 

[Magic Man]

He is not a dictator.
He was elected with the same electoral system that exists in my country.
So are we a dictatorship too?

He was originally elected so, yes, as are many such authoritarian dictators. And he has since made many major changes that effectively make him a dictator:

"The dramatic move sent shock waves around Europe and drew increased attention to the demolition of democracy in what was once one of Central Europe’s most promising countries. Since returning to power in 2010 with a two-thirds supermajority, which has allowed Orban’s Fidesz party to redraft Hungary’s constitution, the prime minister and his cronies have undermined the independent judiciary, hollowed out the media, targeted minorities, and siphoned European Union funds. According to the nongovernmental organization Freedom House’s 2022 report, Hungary is only “partly free”—the only EU member state to fall into the category shared with India, Pakistan, Serbia, and others.

Just before Tuesday’s announcement, Orban used his supermajority to amend the country’s constitution to allow the government to declare a “state of danger” should a war erupt in a neighboring country. This was his 10th change to the constitution since it was introduced in 2012. Hungary has endured states of emergency throughout the coronavirus pandemic and the refugee crisis of 2015, but this is the first time a European state, aside from Ukraine and Moldova, has introduced such a policy since the Russian invasion of Ukraine on Feb. 24.

Essentially, the state of emergency gives Orban the authority to rule by decree, bypassing parliament altogether."

Hungary’s Orban Dials Dictatorship Up a Notch

Budapest’s faux state of emergency is meant to appease Putin and cement Orban’s hold on power.

foreignpolicy.com

In Ukraine there is no freedom of speech.
There is no freedom of press.
There is no freedom of saying no to conscription.
There is no freedom of emigrating to EU countries.
There is no freedom. Period.

I have some news for you. The EU leaders smile at him whenever they see Mr Zely...but you have no idea of what they tell about him...when he is not around.

Sounds a lot like Putin and Russia. (And sounds like a lot of false propaganda about Ukraine.) In other words, another example of your massive double standard, despite you claiming to be against double standards.

 

[Stevicus]

Are you not serious enough to admit that what you said was plainly absurd?

Either you admit how absurd it is, or there's no point debating with you.

Just because it is your opinion that it is absurd, that doesn't mean I have to agree with it. You quoted a random statement out of context and have chosen to fixate on it. That's what is absurd here.

If you really believe it to be so absurd, why would it be so difficult for you to list rational, logical arguments as to why you think that's true?

 

[Estro Felino]

Sounds a lot like Putin and Russia. (And sounds like a lot of false propaganda about Ukraine.) In other words, another example of your massive double standard, despite you claiming to be against double standards.

Russia has never wanted to join the EU.
And Russia cannot join the EU because it's not democratic enough. It must change.

Ukraine has always wanted to join the EU...but they need to change, that's why I was focusing on Ukraine.
If they withdrew their candidacy, well...I would stop caring about Kiev.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Serbia was invaded by the US because she was harassing Kosovars.

I think "harassing" is an excessively understated way to describe massacres and ethnic cleansing.

That was legitimate, of course.
But what Russia did is legitimate too, because now it is Ukraine which has been harassing Donbas people since 2014.

I haven't seen evidence of this. I have, however, seen a lot of Russian propaganda about it where it is used as a justification for Putin's invasion, just as in the above part of your post.

That's a very good point.
But Ukraine being a dictatorship has nothing to do with Russia's invasion.

It caught my attention that you juxtaposed Ukraine's supposed dictatorship with an assertion that Russia "still held elections" during wartime. Why compare the two, then?

The topic here is Zelenskyy, not Russia.

Your OP directly mentioned Russia as a point of comparison.

If Zelenskyy thinks his own people loves him, he should renew his mandate with new election.
But he does know that his own people hates him...that's why he will be president without elections.
Like Mussolini...that remained in power for 20 years.

It seems reasonable to me to suspend an election when the country is under increasing pressure during a war of aggression. Also, I haven't seen any evidence that Ukrainians "hate" Zelenskyy either.

 

[Magic Man]

That statement hardly "defends" them. As I suspected, you read too much into what is written, stuff that is not there.

It very much defends them. As I suspected, you refuse to acknowledge what is actually written, stuff that is there.

No, it's not "defense." It's merely acknowledging that nations tend to act in their own interests, but that, in and of itself, does not prove any intention of conquering the whole world. It's because of that false belief that the West feels justified in aiding Ukraine. Because if it was just a fight between Ukrainians and Russians - and only them - then the West would not be able to justify its position. That's why the extracurricular demonization of Russia is required.

The West feels justified in aiding Ukraine because it's a sovereign European country being invaded by another one for no actual reason. Along with that the country invading it is one that has been working hard over the past decade to destabilize pretty much the whole world, specifically with disinformation campaigns and election interference. Russia has also aggressively annexed other territory, so this is just another step for them.

This is a fight between Ukrainians and Russians. The only reason others are involved is to help Ukraine, because what Russia is doing is wrong and dangerous for the whole world.

There is no need for extracurricular demonization of Russia. They demonize themselves. Putin is a brutal dictator bent on destabilizing all countries opposed to him and his cronies. That's why he interfered in America's elections and others, and why he has a massive campaign to spread disinformation and support far-right people around the world, because those people, like Trump, Orban and Le Pen support his agenda.

 

[Estro Felino]

I think "harassing" is an excessively understated way to describe massacres and ethnic cleansing.

I agree. I was using an euphemism.

I haven't seen evidence of this. I have, however, seen a lot of Russian propaganda about it where it is used as a justification for Putin's invasion, just as in the above part of your post.

Explain me this video, then,
What does the NATO chief mean, here?

It seems reasonable to me to suspend an election when the country is under increasing pressure during a war of aggression. Also, I haven't seen any evidence that Ukrainians "hate" Zelenskyy either.

If Ukrainian men adore him so much that they are ready to die for the sake of him (who won't go to war, he stays sound and safe, while sending his people to die), why are they leaving Ukraine en masse?
To migrate to Poland or Germany?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Just because it is your opinion that it is absurd

If you can't see why that statement is absurd, and won't retract it, why on earth are you pretending you can debate geopolitics?

 

[Magic Man]

If you believe that the other posts "say something completely different" from that post, then that's on you and your own reading comprehension problems. They say essentially the same thing. You seem to want to read too much into what other people say, making unwarranted extrapolations and jumping to conclusions based solely on what you feel.

I don't believe it. I point it out because it's true. I can't say whether you refuse to see it or you see it and are just lying about it, but either way, it's true. Your posts and his defend Russia. You can keep pretending they don't and trying to claim that others have the problem here, but it won't make those things true.

You're speaking of yourself, actually. I've been extraordinarily patient through this entire exchange, while enduring salvos of misinformation and wrongful accusations which have nothing to do with the subject or the facts brought forth.

Nope. None of that is remotely true. You made some wild claims defending Russia. We pointed that out, and you have just double and tripled down. The salvos of misinformation and wrongful accusations are coming from you. For example, "Russia expands for defensive purposes" and "they have enough land, so obviously they're not doing this offensively for more land", and "That's McCarthysim!".

The facts brought forth are when I point out the massive problems with your claims.