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Ukraine has become a dictatorship, it's official

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
Not much different from "not allowing" Hitler to take over more and more of Europe. The details of how we do it are complicated, but the overall idea is cut and dried.
I would not speak of the past.
I would speak of the present.
Do you know why leftists' cheekiness is unbearable?

Because they are so cheeky and shameless, that they say: "we can do that, because we are God and you guys are nothing".

For instance...some leftists are clearly funded by all those countries where women are treated like third class citizens and forced to wear the veil...but that's ok.

If an European country is funded by Putin, leftists accuse them of being undemocratic.

That's utterly disgusting.
At least in Russia we can dress like hookers and the State won't jail us.
 
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Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
Zelenskyy ran on three campaign promises:

(1) maximum efforts for peace in Donbas, (2) fighting corruption to deliver good and responsive governance, and (3) improving the well-being of ordinary Ukrainian people.
Indeed. Sadly Putin was intent on invading, so the only path to "peace in Donbas" would have been to basically give him Donbas and probably more. When dealing with someone like him with an agenda, "maximum efforts" aren't guaranteed or even likely to succeed.
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
I would not speak of the past.
I would speak of the present.
That's great. I was speaking of both, since in this case the past gives a good example to judge the present.
Do you know why leftists' cheekiness is unbearable?
Your huge bias against them?
Because they are so cheeky and shameless, that they say: "we can do that, because we are God and we guys are nothing".
Uh, what?
For instance...some leftists are clearly funded by all those countries where women are treated like third class citizens and forced to wear the veil...but that's ok.
Examples? I mean, since you're talking about right-wing countries, the obvious situation would be that they fund right-wingers, not leftists, so I'll need some support for this.
If an European country is funded by Putin, leftists accuse them of being undemocratic.
Correct. Because Putin is anti-democratic, and he supports efforts that undermine democracy across the world.
That's utterly disgusting.
I agree. Putin working against democracy in European and American (the continent) countries is disgusting.
At least in Russia can dress like hookers and the State won't jail them.
Uh, what? You can dress like a hooker anywhere in the west and not be jailed.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
It very much defends them. As I suspected, you refuse to acknowledge what is actually written, stuff that is there.

No, it really doesn't defend them at all. You're reading too much into what isn't there.

The West feels justified in aiding Ukraine because it's a sovereign European country being invaded by another one for no actual reason. Along with that the country invading it is one that has been working hard over the past decade to destabilize pretty much the whole world, specifically with disinformation campaigns and election interference. Russia has also aggressively annexed other territory, so this is just another step for them.

Don't you ever wonder how it happens? How do these rogue nations and evil governments inexplicably and suddenly pop up out of nowhere? The U.S. does seem to have to deal with this kind of situation on a regular basis.

This is a fight between Ukrainians and Russians. The only reason others are involved is to help Ukraine, because what Russia is doing is wrong and dangerous for the whole world.

I agree that what Russia is doing is wrong, but whether it's dangerous for the whole world is another question altogether.

There is no need for extracurricular demonization of Russia. They demonize themselves. Putin is a brutal dictator bent on destabilizing all countries opposed to him and his cronies. That's why he interfered in America's elections and others, and why he has a massive campaign to spread disinformation and support far-right people around the world, because those people, like Trump, Orban and Le Pen support his agenda.

I don't see them as demons, nor do I believe that they're demonizing themselves. Putin's rise to power seems to coincide with a rise in xenophobia and a resurgence in nationalism which has taken place in Russia. One thing that keeps him in power is the Russians' fear of the West. That's how nationalism works, by stoking fear among the masses. Of course, it may contain a lot of BS propaganda and disinformation, but the long-term fear and mistrust of the West is very real - and that's why it works. In the West, there has also been a long-term fear and mistrust of the Russians, so the idea of Russians being an "enemy" is something that Westerners have grown accustomed to for generations.

But it's no longer the same world as it was during the Cold War. Not everyone buys in to the "Captain America" vs. "the evil empire" shtick.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
If you can't see why that statement is absurd, and won't retract it, why on earth are you pretending you can debate geopolitics?

Because it's a topic I can understand on a much deeper level than those who wish to oversimplify and compartmentalize issues into their own separate, neat, little packages.
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
If you were arguing a court case, one could say that it's an "open and shut" case in terms of demonstrating Russia's guilt in this situation. I'm not really arguing against that, although it seems to imply that the West has some sort of global law enforcement authority.
No, it doesn't. What it seems to imply is that Ukraine, as an ally of the USA, is well within their rights to be supplied arms and further support from the USA. It doesn't mean that USA enforces "global law", but they have the right to support political allies.

I would also take note of your use of the phrase "not be allowed," wondering who is in the position to be able to "allow" or "not allow" under these circumstances.
Now you're being deliberately uncharitable, as any reasonable person would understand that "allow" in this context doesn't evoke an individual, more a simple case of responsibility and consequences. "To allow" as in "To simply let happen without recourse to negative impact or consequence or active intervention". It means a broad scope of things.

Do we have the resources, the wherewithal, the will, and the muscle to disallow them to do that?
We have the ability to provide support to allied nations, and to extend practical treaties of mutual aid to those nations.

What are we prepared to do? How far are we willing to go? When it comes to these questions, it's not so cut and dried.
Good thing we don't have to consider them that much. We can simply provide the aid in such a way that is within reasonable international law without provoking further conflict or causing unnecessary suffering.

To argue against this is to necessarily argue not just that states like Russia - the guilty party - suffer nothing for their actions, but that states like Ukraine should also be made to suffer merely for lacking the resources other countries have that could have aided them.

I am against hegemonic power structures, but if there is a use of hegemonic power that I actually believe is morally good it is the use of hegemonic power to protect the lives and sovereignty of weaker independent nations against belligerent imperialist ones.
 

lukethethird

unknown member
Yes, though even acknowledging this is not sufficient for some of the hardheads. They believe that anyone who says anything less than "Russia is evil" and "Putin is Hitler" is automatically giving "praise" and "support" to Russia.
I think it's pathological, it can't be helped. It's McCarthyism 2.0
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I don't believe it. I point it out because it's true. I can't say whether you refuse to see it or you see it and are just lying about it, but either way, it's true. Your posts and his defend Russia. You can keep pretending they don't and trying to claim that others have the problem here, but it won't make those things true.

You really can't see that this is just your opinion, that you're just making a characterization here? Using the standard tactics of "guilt by association" and "those who are not with us are against us"? You're really not seeing that, are you?

Nope. None of that is remotely true. You made some wild claims defending Russia.

That's your opinion. Your emphatic use of the word "wild" would indicate that you're trying to win by volume rather than by factual, rational argument.

We pointed that out, and you have just double and tripled down.

Well, you just said that I was wrong and left it that. When I asked you to explain what was wrong with my claims, you didn't want to tell me. You said I should "study a bit of history," as I recall. You couldn't take the time to explain to me why you think I'm wrong, and instead just launched more attacks and accusations.

So, how am I supposed to respond to that?

The salvos of misinformation and wrongful accusations are coming from you. For example, "Russia expands for defensive purposes" and "they have enough land, so obviously they're not doing this offensively for more land", and "That's McCarthysim!".

The facts brought forth are when I point out the massive problems with your claims.

This is just like Pee Wee Herman. "I know you are, but what am I?"

I have to go now. Have a nice day.
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
No, it really doesn't defend them at all. You're reading too much into what isn't there.
It really does. If not, then what's the point of saying it?

Russia only expands for defensive purposes and to create a buffer zone.

Doing something for defense rather than offense is a way of justifying it. You even said it's understandable that they do this. It's why there's a big difference between killing someone "offensively" vs. defensively. If you kill someone who's attacking you, it's not necessarily a crime. If you go attack and kill someone who didn't attack you, it's a crime (at least the vast majority of the time).
Don't you ever wonder how it happens? How do these rogue nations and evil governments inexplicably and suddenly pop up out of nowhere?
What is it with you guys and this "sudden" stuff? I guess it's an easy way to try to dismiss stuff you don't like, by using dishonest words to paint it as something it's not.

There's nothing inexplicable or sudden about Russia's actions. Putin has been working on this kind of stuff for decades. This particular invasion was not at all sudden. It came about over the course of years and started with their support for the tiny group who wanted Donbas to break away from Ukraine. I don't wonder how this one happened, because it's already clear. Putin puts in a lot of effort to undermine democracy around the world. He has annexed other lands in the recent past. He needed to drum up support. He saw an opportunity here where he could use his propaganda to do all of that.
The U.S. does seem to have to deal with this kind of situation on a regular basis.
Whether or not they do is irrelevant here. Stick to this situation.
I agree that what Russia is doing is wrong, but whether it's dangerous for the whole world is another question altogether.
So, a country doing something wrong by invading a sovereign country is not dangerous outside of that one situation? You don't understand that it has greater implications? Especially when Putin already annexed other territories and has used a vast campaign to undermine democracy throughout the world?
I don't see them as demons, nor do I believe that they're demonizing themselves. Putin's rise to power seems to coincide with a rise in xenophobia and a resurgence in nationalism which has taken place in Russia. One thing that keeps him in power is the Russians' fear of the West. That's how nationalism works, by stoking fear among the masses. Of course, it may contain a lot of BS propaganda and disinformation, but the long-term fear and mistrust of the West is very real - and that's why it works. In the West, there has also been a long-term fear and mistrust of the Russians, so the idea of Russians being an "enemy" is something that Westerners have grown accustomed to for generations.
So, Putin rises to power and becomes a dictator "coincided" with a rise in xenophobia, nationalism and bigotry? Rather than being intricately linked?

You're almost there here. Putin uses nationalism, xenophobia, bigotry and fear of the west to stay in power. That, plus underhanded tactics that make elections a sham. You admit that he uses a lot of propaganda and disinformation.

We've grown accustomed to Russians as the enemy, but that doesn't change the fact that they currently are, because of their actions, not because of history. Putin's actions are what makes them our enemy and the enemy of democracy.
But it's no longer the same world as it was during the Cold War. Not everyone buys in to the "Captain America" vs. "the evil empire" shtick.
Good thing no one here is talking about the Cold War or "Captain America vs. The Evil Empire". It's only you guys trying to pretend anyone pointing out the problems with your claims is automatically promoting the "Captain America" shtick.
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
I did all that research and no one offered a word of advice on it. Oh well.
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
I tried going thru the posts, but I just can't do it. Magic Man, what percentage did you say shows a dictatorship per se, or at least questionable results, in an election?
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
You really can't see that this is just your opinion, that you're just making a characterization here? Using the standard tactics of "guilt by association" and "those who are not with us are against us"? You're really not seeing that, are you?
Correct. I'm not seeing things that aren't there. Nothing about what I've said is "guilt by association" or "those who are not with us are against us".

You are specifically defending Russia's actions here. You claim that Russia generally expands for defensive purposes and that they already have enough land. You even say it's understandable. That's neither "guilt by association" nor "those who are not with us are against us". It's specific to your actual claims that you yourself are making that are pro-Russia.
That's your opinion. Your emphatic use of the word "wild" would indicate that you're trying to win by volume rather than by factual, rational argument.
Nope, not an opinion. If your plan is to just keep trying to dismiss things as opinions when they're not, I'd suggest stopping. Using a label like "wild" is not trying to win by volume. That's a silly claim. Like, it's not even something that makes sense. Trying to win by volume would be posting a lot, not posting certain words.

I've also already presented the factual, rational arguments. You have ignored or dismissed them without actually listening or understanding.
Well, you just said that I was wrong and left it that. When I asked you to explain what was wrong with my claims, you didn't want to tell me. You said I should "study a bit of history," as I recall. You couldn't take the time to explain to me why you think I'm wrong, and instead just launched more attacks and accusations.

So, how am I supposed to respond to that?
I did explain what was wrong with what you said with actual examples. You can't keep an argument going for pages just so you can then lie and hope people won't look back several pages. This is very dishonest.

But yes, you studying a bit of history would certainly help, especially since you pretend to be knowledgeable on it and pretend that it's others who aren't. And the way to respond to my pointing out you're wrong with explanations and examples would be to try to understand and respond honestly, rather than to dismiss and distract.
This is just like Pee Wee Herman. "I know you are, but what am I?"

I have to go now. Have a nice day.
1) Ah, the irony of you saying "You're speaking of yourself, actually" and then trying to accuse others of exactly that.

2) The fact remains you have offered false information that defends Russia here. I've pointed that out. If you want to try to dismiss that by saying "Nuh uh, you're the one saying wrong things", all I can do is point out that that's obviously not the case.
 

Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member
The only one mongering war just prior to
Russia's invasion of Ukraine was Russia.
Exactly like when US invaded Serbia to help Kosovars against Belgrade's tyranny.

Moscow helped the Donbas separatists against Kiev's tyranny.
 
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Estro Felino

Believer in free will
Premium Member

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
I tried going thru the posts, but I just can't do it. Magic Man, what percentage did you say shows a dictatorship per se, or at least questionable results, in an election?
What I said was that 88% is clearly not a legitimate election. That's the kind of number you get with a sham election where they want to pretend it's legitimate, so they don't claim 100%.

But that's also just part of the evidence. It's an obvious and easy example. There are plenty of other indications of Russia's elections being a sham, like Putin killing political opponents.
 
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