Ukraine has become a dictatorship, it's official

[Estro Felino]

Then don't do it. Pretty simple.

Sealioning is asking for more and more evidence, and denying the pieces of evidence the interlocutor provides.

I have never asked you for evidence.

 

[Revoltingest]

I just can't stand double standards....

...or any standards at all.

 

[Debater Slayer]

It would be more honest if u said: "we Americans can because we are GOD whereas you Europeans are nothing."

I rarely opt to post anything in defense of another poster mainly because I know we're all capable of speaking for ourselves, but the above strikes me as an extremely unfair accusation. I have seen both @Revoltingest and @Magic Man criticize US foreign policy on many issues, especially wars of aggression and contribution to them. I have never gotten an impression from them that they believe "Americans are GOD."

Hyperbole is often useless and only serves to obscure relevant arguments.

 

[Estro Felino]

I rarely opt to post anything in defense of another poster mainly because I know we're all capable of speaking for ourselves, but the above strikes me as an extremely unfair accusation. I have seen both @Revoltingest and @Magic Man criticize US foreign policy on many issues, especially wars of aggression and contribution to them. I have never gotten an impression from them that they believe "Americans are GOD."

Hyperbole is often useless and only serves to obscure relevant arguments.

I don't understand why they accuse Russia of doing something the US did in Serbia many years ago.
My mind is incapable of finding a logic.

 

[Revoltingest]

I rarely opt to post anything in defense of another poster mainly because I know we're all capable of speaking for ourselves, but the above strikes me as an extremely unfair accusation. I have seen both @Revoltingest and @Magic Man criticize US foreign policy on many issues, especially wars of aggression and contribution to them. I have never gotten an impression from them that they believe "Americans are GOD."

Hyperbole is often useless and only serves to obscure relevant arguments.

We are simultaneously God & godless.
Go figure.

 

[Debater Slayer]

I don't understand why they accuse Russia of doing something the US did in Serbia many years ago.
My mind is incapable of finding a logic.

Setting aside that the situation with Serbia was different, whether the US' actions in Serbia were justified or not has no bearing on the justifiability of Putin's actions. They're two separate issues.

... just like I can agree with you that universal health care is good but staunchly oppose your beliefs about the Russian invasion. I don't think it would be reasonable to say, "I think you're wrong about that other thing, so you're also wrong about this totally unrelated issue."

 

[Magic Man]

I just can't stand double standards

Yes, you've already tried this one, and I already explained why it's wrong. I've also pointed out your own double standards, so you're not really in a position to criticize others for something you do.

 

[Magic Man]

Sealioning is asking for more and more evidence, and denying the pieces of evidence the interlocutor provides.

I have never asked you for evidence.

I know, but I'm not sealioning, so it was the only conclusion I could draw from that. If you're tired of it, stop doing it.

And asking for evidence that I can actually read is not sealioning. You provided one link, and I can't even read it. You can't then claim sealioning, as that's just dishonest.

 

[Estro Felino]

Setting aside that the situation with Serbia was different, whether the US' actions in Serbia were justified or not has no bearing on the justifiability of Putin's actions. They're two separate issues.

I am a coherent person and I only apply one single standard.
I said that what the US did in Serbia was 100% understandable.
But I don't understand why so many people apply a completely different standard in Donbas.
Nobody has ever answered this question, so far.

Because Kiev under Poroshenko has been a dictatorial regime oppressing Donbas separatists.

 

[Estro Felino]

I know, but I'm not sealioning, so it was the only conclusion I could draw from that. If you're tired of it, stop doing it.

And asking for evidence that I can actually read is not sealioning. You provided one link, and I can't even read it. You can't then claim sealioning, as that's just dishonest.

Ok, let's try again. One last time.

Foreigners gave millions to Clinton foundation

Former President Bill Clinton's foundation has raised at least $41 million from Saudi Arabia and other foreign governments that his wife Hillary Rodham Clinton may end up negotiating with as the next secretary of state.

www.nbcnews.com

 

[Revoltingest]

I don't understand why they accuse Russia of doing something the US did in....

 

[Magic Man]

I don't understand why they accuse Russia of doing something the US did in Serbia many years ago.
My mind is incapable of finding a logic.

1) You'd have to establish the two things are the same or at least comparable.

2) You'd have to establish that that example is relevant.

This was pointed out as whataboutism, because it's trying to deflect by changing the topic. We're talking about what Russia is doing. What the U.S. did in another situation in the past isn't relevant. The only way it would be relevant is if it was already established that there is a comparable situation that I treat differently. That's not the case, so stick to Russia here.

 

[Debater Slayer]

I am a coherent person and I only apply one single standard.

(Coloring mine.)

I don't think you do, but that's not the thread topic, so I'll leave it at that. I have no interest in discussing what your standard is for different issues.

I said that what the US did in Serbia was 100% understandable.
But I don't understand why so many people apply a completely different standard in Donbas.
Nobody has ever answered this question, so far.

I recall from previous threads that your supposed evidence that the Donbas wanted to secede was a referendum carried out under Russian control. I see many reasons not to trust the result of such a "referendum," especially given that Putin had major incentives to falsify its result for the sake of furthering his goals.

Because Kiev under Poroshenko has been a dictatorial regime oppressing Donbas separatists.

When Russia invaded Ukraine, Zelenskyy was in power, not Poroshenko.

 

[Magic Man]

I am a coherent person and I only apply one single standard.
I said that what the US did in Serbia was 100% understandable.
But I don't understand why so many people apply a completely different standard in Donbas.
Nobody has ever answered this question, so far.

Because Kiev under Poroshenko has been a dictatorial regime oppressing Donbas separatists.

You apply one standard to Ukraine and a different one to Russia. So, that shoots down your claims here.

You haven't established that anyone here applies a different standard in Donbas than in other places. All you've done is bring up a different situation, as if it's relevant. And we've told you multiple times that it's irrelevant and to stick to the situation at hand.

 

[lukethethird]

Read "Ukraine voting to join NATO, a voluntary defensive pact that would have protected them against Russia, who had repeatedly meddled in their politics and directly participated in the annexing of Ukrainian territory through separatist militia groups".


Read "Would have prevented Putin from invading Ukraine, which is a thing he wanted to do, so he decided to invade Ukraine before they voluntarily joined NATO".


Then why do you bring it up, even though the very idea of it is patently absurd? We're not in the cold war any more. If America wanted to fire missiles at Russia they can just do that. They don't need a country on Russia's border to do that.


See, even when you're trying desperately to make it sound like you're not being massively biased in Putin's favour, you still can't help but resort to your constantly biased framing of every relevant issue. And not once have you ever mentioned, or brought up for consideration, the free will of the sovereign state of Ukraine, and what the people of Ukraine wanted. You literally just view Russia as a giant, terrifying unstoppable force that MUST be appeased, even against the will and security of their surrounding nations.

Firstly, I want you to start by acknowledging that NATO doesn't "go into" nations. They voluntarily join.

Secondly, I want you to acknowledge that Ukraine had very, very good reasons for wanting to join NATO, what with Russia's constant antagonism, direct involvement in separatism, and history of invading and annexing its neighbours.

Thirdly, I want you to acknowledge the absurdity of the idea that Putin feared "missiles on his border" when the very notion in the first instance is laughable and in the second instance there is absolutely zero immediate threat of any country attempting to attack or invade Russia unprovoked.

When you start acknowledging those things, perhaps your "I do totally think the invasion wasn't justified" tack would come off significantly less like a total facade.

The US and UK don't get together to attack nations that can defend themselves, that's why the proxy war in Ukraine, it's means of providing arms at great costs to the taxpayer in order to kill Russians with Ukraine lives at risk. It's a win win for the west. Go ahead and read into that what you like because you will anyways.

 

[Magic Man]

Ok, let's try again. One last time.

Foreigners gave millions to Clinton foundation

Former President Bill Clinton's foundation has raised at least $41 million from Saudi Arabia and other foreign governments that his wife Hillary Rodham Clinton may end up negotiating with as the next secretary of state.

www.nbcnews.com

Thank you. Now, what do you think that proves?

 

[Estro Felino]

1) You'd have to establish the two things are the same or at least comparable.

2) You'd have to establish that that example is relevant.

This was pointed out as whataboutism, because it's trying to deflect by changing the topic. We're talking about what Russia is doing. What the U.S. did in another situation in the past isn't relevant. The only way it would be relevant is if it was already established that there is a comparable situation that I treat differently. That's not the case, so stick to Russia here.

Whataboutism:
two friends at the bar:
A: you know, I saw you Erin, you were kissing another man.
B; come on Sheila, You have been cheating on your husband for years, leave me alone.
A: but that's whataboutism ,...that has nothing to do with you and the other man.

 

[Estro Felino]

Thank you. Now, what do you think that proves?

The leftists are free to be funded by foreign countries.
so are we, Europeans, to be funded by Putin.

 

[Magic Man]

Whataboutism:
two friends at the bar:
A: you know, I saw you Erin, you were kissing another man.
B; come on Sheila, You have been cheating on your husband for years, leave me alone.
A: but that's whataboutism ,...that has nothing to do with you and the other man.

Yes, that could be an example of whataboutism. Another example:

Me: What Russia has done in Ukraine is wrong.
You: But what about what the U.S. did in Serbia decades ago?
Me: That's whataboutism. That has nothing to do with Russia and Ukraine right now.

 

[Magic Man]

The leftists are free to be funded by foreign countries.
so are we, Europeans, to be funded by Putin.

I mean, yes, you are and they are. Is there a point here?