Ukraine has become a dictatorship, it's official

[Revoltingest]

Did y'all know that Ukraine didn't even want to be a part of NATO till a few years ago?

Recent events likely inspired them
to seek protection from Russia.
Seems reasonable.

 

[lukethethird]

It's a variation on the refrain of "those who are not with us are against us." McCarthyism was similar in that it took the same stance on an ideological basis, which also targeted liberals, progressives, and civil rights leaders whose economic views and sympathies for poor people made them appear to be communist dupes or "useful idiots," if not outright agents of Moscow, in the eyes of U.S. policymakers and others of influence.

Nowadays, since Russia has gone full tilt into capitalism, they are no longer viewed as an "ideological" threat, per se, but more of a right-wing nationalistic threat. The Ukrainians also seem to be displaying a great deal of nationalism as well.

The Western position seems more a legalistic one than anything else. Russia did invade Ukraine, which is a violation of the UN Charter and other international treaties prohibiting aggressive invasion. Legally, the Russians are wrong, so they should just withdraw, and that's the West's first and final word on the whole matter. They violated international law, they broke international agreements and treaties. They're as guilty as a cat in a goldfish bowl, from the West's perspective. I understand this, and I acknowledge that it's true.

But I also know that it's also a war. If lawyers could win wars, the U.S. would have conquered the world a long time ago.

Yes, Russia is guilty and the fact that the threat of nato going into Ukraine was a direct provocation, does not get Putin off the hook. As threatened as he felt by the thought of western missiles right on his border makes no difference, he's guilty of war crimes for sending the troops in. Unfortunately, diplomacy appears to be a thing of the past, there appears to be no diplomats representing any of the countries involved.

 

[Kathryn]

The US backed coup that overthrew a democratically elected government in Ukraine may have been a factor in the change of direction. Zelenski ran for office on the platform that he would make peace with Russia, won the election by a landslide, and then did a 180 once he was elected. I wonder how many Ukraines trust
OK, so a yes, you are willing to gamble with Ukraine lives even though Ukraine has no hope of regaining the lost territory.

Just to be clear, I believe it's "Zelenskyy" with two y's. He used to be an actor (comedy) and became the Ukrainian president in 2019, the sixth one, I believe, in that time frame. He grew up speaking Russian. He originally promised to only serve 1 term but recanted that in 2021. Ukrainian presidents serve for five years. Since 1991, there have been seven presidential elections - in 1991, 1994, 1999, 2004, 2010, 2014 and 2019.

Burisma Holdings, which Hunter Biden "worked" for, is owned by Ukrainians - or the Ukrainian government, it's hard to tell which. In September 2019, it was reported that U.S. president Donald Trump had allegedly blocked payment of a congressionally mandated $400-million military aid package to Ukraine to pressure the two presidents to invest in something or other. This report was the catalyst for the Trump-Ukraine scandal, and the impeachment inquiry against Trump. Zelenskyy has denied that he was pressured by Trump and declared that "he does not want to interfere in a foreign election."

On 7 March 2022, as a condition for ending the invasion, the Kremlin demanded Ukraine's neutrality; recognition of Crimea, which had been annexed by Russia, as Russian territory; and recognition of the self-proclaimed separatist republics of Donetsk and Luhansk as independent states. On 8 March, Zelenskyy expressed willingness to discuss Putin's demands. Eventually, however, Ukraine decided against this. Not sure why but OK, it's also not my business.

Zelenskyy proposed a new collective security agreement for Ukraine with the United States, Turkey, France, and Germany as an alternative to the country joining NATO. He has banned men from 18 to 60 from leaving Ukraine, stating that up to 200 men per day are being killed in eastern Ukraine. He is demanding that the Chinese cut all trade with Russia, but since the invasion, he has said that the Chinese president will not talk with him. On 20 July 2022, South America's Mercosur trade bloc refused Zelenskyy's request to speak at the trade bloc's summit in Paraguay. Zelenskyy's government says that he has never promised to lower taxes on anyone - that those statements were only "joking." He has stated repeatedly though that he wants to join NATO and the EU in 2024. He has also stated repeatedly that he is supportive of Israel, and is opposed to Hamas.

In response to a petition demanding equal rights for same-sex couples, Zelenskyy echoed the view that family does not depend on sex and asked the Prime Minister of Ukraine to review civil partnerships for same-sex couples. With regards to same sex marriage, Zelenskyy cited a provision in the Constitution of Ukraine barring same-sex marriage, as well as a ban on wartime changes to the Constitution, ruling out an introduction of same-sex marriages during the ongoing war. Civil rights organizations praised the statement, though criticizing its vagueness, as Zelenskyy had avoided giving any details about legal proposals for civil partnerships. So aren't they still illegal?

On 2 December 2022, Zelenskyy entered a bill to the Verkhovna Rada that would officially ban all activities of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (Moscow Patriarchate) UOC in Ukraine.

Since becoming president, he has heavily improved his knowledge of the Ukrainian language and hired a tutor to help him improve his command of the language. He speaks Russian and English fluently.

Volodymyr Zelenskyy - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[lukethethird]

Just to be clear, I believe it's "Zelenskyy" with two y's. He used to be an actor (comedy) and became the Ukrainian president in 2019, the sixth one, I believe, in that time frame. He grew up speaking Russian. He originally promised to only serve 1 term but recanted that in 2021. Ukrainian presidents serve for five years. Since 1991, there have been seven presidential elections - in 1991, 1994, 1999, 2004, 2010, 2014 and 2019.

Burisma Holdings, which Hunter Biden "worked" for, is owned by Ukrainians - or the Ukrainian government, it's hard to tell which. In September 2019, it was reported that U.S. president Donald Trump had allegedly blocked payment of a congressionally mandated $400-million military aid package to Ukraine to pressure the two presidents to invest in something or other. This report was the catalyst for the Trump-Ukraine scandal, and the impeachment inquiry against Trump. Zelenskyy has denied that he was pressured by Trump and declared that "he does not want to interfere in a foreign election."

On 7 March 2022, as a condition for ending the invasion, the Kremlin demanded Ukraine's neutrality; recognition of Crimea, which had been annexed by Russia, as Russian territory; and recognition of the self-proclaimed separatist republics of Donetsk and Luhansk as independent states. On 8 March, Zelenskyy expressed willingness to discuss Putin's demands. Eventually, however, Ukraine decided against this. Not sure why but OK, it's also not my business.

Zelenskyy proposed a new collective security agreement for Ukraine with the United States, Turkey, France, and Germany as an alternative to the country joining NATO. He has banned men from 18 to 60 from leaving Ukraine, stating that up to 200 men per day are being killed in eastern Ukraine. He is demanding that the Chinese cut all trade with Russia, but since the invasion, he has said that the Chinese president will not talk with him. On 20 July 2022, South America's Mercosur trade bloc refused Zelenskyy's request to speak at the trade bloc's summit in Paraguay. Zelenskyy's government says that he has never promised to lower taxes on anyone - that those statements were only "joking." He has stated repeatedly though that he wants to join NATO and the EU in 2024. He has also stated repeatedly that he is supportive of Israel, and is opposed to Hamas.

In response to a petition demanding equal rights for same-sex couples, Zelenskyy echoed the view that family does not depend on sex and asked the Prime Minister of Ukraine to review civil partnerships for same-sex couples. With regards to same sex marriage, Zelenskyy cited a provision in the Constitution of Ukraine barring same-sex marriage, as well as a ban on wartime changes to the Constitution, ruling out an introduction of same-sex marriages during the ongoing war. Civil rights organizations praised the statement, though criticizing its vagueness, as Zelenskyy had avoided giving any details about legal proposals for civil partnerships. So aren't they still illegal?

On 2 December 2022, Zelenskyy entered a bill to the Verkhovna Rada that would officially ban all activities of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church (Moscow Patriarchate) UOC in Ukraine.

Since becoming president, he has heavily improved his knowledge of the Ukrainian language and hired a tutor to help him improve his command of the language. He speaks Russian and English fluently.

Volodymyr Zelenskyy - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Regarding the March 7 2022 peace talks:

"The Ukrainian news outlet Ukrayinska Pravda reported Thursday that British Prime Minister Boris Johnson used his surprise visit to Kyiv last month to pressure President Volodymyr Zelenskyy to cut off peace negotiations with Russia, even after the two sides appeared to have made tenuous progress toward a settlement to end the war."

https://www.commondreams.org/news/2022/05/06/boris-johnson-pressured-zelenskyy-ditch-peace-talks-russia-ukrainian-paper

 

[Stevicus]

Yes, Russia is guilty and the fact that the threat of nato going into Ukraine was a direct provocation, does not get Putin off the hook. As threatened as he felt by the thought of western missiles right on his border makes no difference, he's guilty of war crimes for sending the troops in. Unfortunately, diplomacy appears to be a thing of the past, there appears to be no diplomats representing any of the countries involved.

Yes, though even acknowledging this is not sufficient for some of the hardheads. They believe that anyone who says anything less than "Russia is evil" and "Putin is Hitler" is automatically giving "praise" and "support" to Russia.

 

[Revoltingest]

Yes, though even acknowledging this is not sufficient for some of the hardheads. They believe that anyone who says anything less than "Russia is evil" and "Putin is Hitler" is automatically giving "praise" and "support" to Russia.

Histrionics in defense of Mother Russia.

 

[Link]

Look at Russia.

Iranians should learn from Russia and support a strong leader consecutively. Not this flip flop thing they do. Russia and China can't trust Iran with technology if Iran elects a president who wants to turn against Russia and China and side with the west.

I can't believe the election results of Iran. Iranians betrayed God, Imam Mahdi (a) and themselves really. They believe in Satanic propaganda. The religious clergy are all **** too cause they can't even guide their people in righteous path.

Russia are a good people who don't seek divisions for sake of it, and support a leader who cares for them and who is trustworthy.

 

[Stevicus]

Histrionics in defense of Mother Russia.

Thanks for proving my point.

 

[Revoltingest]

Thanks for proving my point.

You use a very low standard of "proof".

 

[Estro Felino]

Histrionics in defense of Mother Russia.

In defense of Mother Russia against the elitist cabal of warmongers.

 

[Estro Felino]

1) They are a democracy. They postponed elections this one time because they're being invaded.

I imagine. So if the war terminates in 2050, there will be 25 years of Zelensky's dictatorial rule?

2) Whether or not Russia has applied to join the EU is irrelevant. That's not what you're talking about. You're criticizing Ukraine for postponing their elections, but you love Putin and Russia, and they haven't had a legitimate election in a long time. It's a double standard.

Russia has legitimate elections. I can speak Russian and I know the Russian system pretty well.
They are more democratic than the US since they have several parties, whereas the US just two.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Did y'all know that Ukraine didn't even want to be a part of NATO till a few years ago?

Perhaps they had some trust that Russia would honour agreements. Less or no trust now or for a long time, after the current Russian leader showed how easy it is to make the Russian people subservient to the aims of one angry and delusional individual whilst at the same time destroying any democracy they might have had.

 

[Estro Felino]

One brutal dictator meeting another dictator who wants to be just like him. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here.

Orbàn was elected.
Zelenskyy wasn't elected, since his mandate has expired.

And by the way Orbàn is a real man. Bellied, virile, courageous,
light years away from certain men looking like daisies.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Well, we all know Putin's inner thoughts,

We know what he says and does.

Don't need to know his inner workings to criticise those things.

Do you know the inner workings of the leaders of NATO and the USA? No? And yet you miraculously seem to able to make all kinds of judgements about their intent and actions.

It's almost as if... your beliefs and arguments are completely incoherent and inconsistent. God forbid.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Yes, so you know that? Is that all you know? I know it, too. I also know that countries might invade other countries for other reasons, other than land. Did you know that?

Unbelievably so, yes.

What do you think you're catching us on?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Yes, Russia is guilty and the fact that the threat of nato going into Ukraine

Read "Ukraine voting to join NATO, a voluntary defensive pact that would have protected them against Russia, who had repeatedly meddled in their politics and directly participated in the annexing of Ukrainian territory through separatist militia groups".

was a direct provocation,

Read "Would have prevented Putin from invading Ukraine, which is a thing he wanted to do, so he decided to invade Ukraine before they voluntarily joined NATO".

does not get Putin off the hook. As threatened as he felt by the thought of western missiles right on his border makes no difference,

Then why do you bring it up, even though the very idea of it is patently absurd? We're not in the cold war any more. If America wanted to fire missiles at Russia they can just do that. They don't need a country on Russia's border to do that.

he's guilty of war crimes for sending the troops in. Unfortunately, diplomacy appears to be a thing of the past, there appears to be no diplomats representing any of the countries involved.

See, even when you're trying desperately to make it sound like you're not being massively biased in Putin's favour, you still can't help but resort to your constantly biased framing of every relevant issue. And not once have you ever mentioned, or brought up for consideration, the free will of the sovereign state of Ukraine, and what the people of Ukraine wanted. You literally just view Russia as a giant, terrifying unstoppable force that MUST be appeased, even against the will and security of their surrounding nations.

Firstly, I want you to start by acknowledging that NATO doesn't "go into" nations. They voluntarily join.

Secondly, I want you to acknowledge that Ukraine had very, very good reasons for wanting to join NATO, what with Russia's constant antagonism, direct involvement in separatism, and history of invading and annexing its neighbours.

Thirdly, I want you to acknowledge the absurdity of the idea that Putin feared "missiles on his border" when the very notion in the first instance is laughable and in the second instance there is absolutely zero immediate threat of any country attempting to attack or invade Russia unprovoked.

When you start acknowledging those things, perhaps your "I do totally think the invasion wasn't justified" tack would come off significantly less like a total facade.

 

[Magic Man]

Well, I don't think we'll convince each other of anything, at least not on this issue, and there's not much more to be said.

That's true. You won't convince me of the Russian propaganda, and I apparently won't convince you of the reality. Mostly at this point I'm just commenting so that if someone else reads, they will get the real story.

But just for the record, I'm not telling Ukraine what to do, nor am I telling Russia what to do. I can't tell the Russians to leave Ukraine any more than Biden or NATO can. They're not leaving, so unless they can be forced out militarily, that's the situation as it stands. At the end of the day, if they want to go on fighting, it's up to them. I just hope that we stay out of it and it doesn't escalate. There are larger issues here.

Ukraine clearly wants to keep fighting rather than give Russia what they want. You're saying they shouldn't do that. I'm saying it's their decision.

I hope we don't stay out of it. I hope we keep helping and that Ukraine wins. Because I'm more interested in justice than peace at all costs. I hope it doesn't escalate, but we can't just give Russia everything it wants in an effort to appease them and avoid WWIII.

 

[Magic Man]

I see no argument from you.

I guess you could see it that way. It was more a correction than an argument.

 

[Magic Man]

I imagine. So if the war terminates in 2050, there will be 25 years of Zelensky's dictatorial rule?

Nope. There isn't dictatorial rule as it is, so it stands to reason that it wouldn't then happen for years to come.

Russia has legitimate elections. I can speak Russian and I know the Russian system pretty well.
They are more democratic than the US since they have several parties, whereas the US just two.

The fact that you state this means nothing you say on the subject can be taken seriously. Your ability to speak Russian is immaterial. I can speak Russian too, but that's also immaterial.

Putin is a dictator. Their elections are a sham. They're only for show. That's how he gets 88% of the vote. You've bought fully into Russian propaganda.

 

[Magic Man]

Orbàn was elected.
Zelenskyy wasn't elected, since his mandate has expired.

And by the way Orbàn is a real man. Bellied, virile, courageous,
light years away from certain men looking like daisies.

Whether or not Orban was originally elected is irrelevant. He is a dictator and wants to be Putin. Zelenskyy was also elected. His mandate hasn't expired.

And yes, I realize you go gaga for strongman authoritarian dictators who hold sham elections and oppress their people, and you just love far-right propaganda.