Ukraine has become a dictatorship, it's official

[Magic Man]

As for 3...are you normalizing that Ukraine has the right to keep Donbas against the Donbas people's will?

It's tyrannical.

Nope. You ignored the important part. The area didn't really want to break away. Putin fomented rebellion there and backed the rebels. He used that as a wedge and justification for sending troops into part of Ukraine.

 

[Estro Felino]

I want the war to stop yesterday. But not by bending over to a bully.

WW2 was horrible as well and I can assure you that those who lived through it wished it over ASAP. But nobody, except collaborators and traitors, would have wanted to terminate the war by bending over and handing over the country to Hitler and his Nazi's.

As horrible as war is, some things are worth fighting for.

Why, btw, do you always focus on stopping the aid to Ukraine for "stopping the war"? Why don't I ever see you say to Putin that he should pull his army out of another sovereign country instead?

What Putin did with Donbas is what USA did with Kosovo.
USA invaded Serbia to help Kosovo become independent.

If Flanders want to become independent, will you guys bomb them savagely?

 

[Estro Felino]

Nope. You ignored the important part. The area didn't really want to break away.

Of course they did.
A referendum ascertained they did.

Putin fomented rebellion there and backed the rebels.

As USA did in Kosovo. Identical.

He used that as a wedge and justification for sending troops into part of Ukraine.

As USA did in Kosovo.

 

[Magic Man]

What Putin did with Donbas is what USA did with Kosovo.
USA invaded Serbia to help Kosovo become independent.

If Flanders want to become independent, will you guys bomb them savagely?

What Putin did with Donbas is foment rebellion by backing a tiny group of people who did not represent the wishes of the whole area.

 

[Estro Felino]

What Putin did with Donbas is foment rebellion by backing a tiny group of people who did not represent the wishes of the whole area.

The referendum ascertained that it was a wish of the whole area.

 

[Magic Man]

Of course they did.

Of course they didn't.

A referendum ascertained they did.

Source?

As USA did in Kosovo. Identical.

As USA did in Kosovo.

Nope.

 

[Estro Felino]

Of course they didn't.

Source?

2022 annexation referendums in Russian-occupied Ukraine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

want to see the ceremony of annexation?

Nope.

Tell me the difference with Kosovo.

 

[Magic Man]

The referendum ascertained that it was a wish of the whole area.

You mean this?

"In late September 2022, in the context of the Russian invasion of Ukraine, Russian-installed officials in Ukraine staged so-called referendums on the annexation of occupied territories of Ukraine by Russia.[1][2][3][4] They were widely described as sham referendums by commentators and denounced by various countries. The validity of the results of the referendums has been accepted by North Korea, and no other sovereign state."

2022 annexation referendums in Russian-occupied Ukraine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Just more of the Russian propaganda you love so much.

 

[Estro Felino]

You mean this?

"In late September 2022, in the context of the Russian invasion of Ukraine, Russian-installed officials in Ukraine staged so-called referendums on the annexation of occupied territories of Ukraine by Russia.[1][2][3][4] They were widely described as sham referendums by commentators and denounced by various countries. The validity of the results of the referendums has been accepted by North Korea, and no other sovereign state."

There is a solution.
Send the UN organize new referendums, so you can be sure and convince yourself.

2022 annexation referendums in Russian-occupied Ukraine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Just more of the Russian propaganda you love so much.

Much better than what the globalist sewer propagandizes.

 

[Magic Man]

2022 annexation referendums in Russian-occupied Ukraine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

want to see the ceremony of annexation?

That's what I figured. I just provided the relevant quote from the link you even provided, but I will again.

In late September 2022, in the context of the Russian invasion of Ukraine, Russian-installed officials in Ukraine staged so-called referendums on the annexation of occupied territories of Ukraine by Russia.[1][2][3][4] They were widely described as sham referendums by commentators and denounced by various countries. The validity of the results of the referendums has been accepted by North Korea, and no other sovereign state.

Tell me the difference with Kosovo.

No, this is irrelevant and whataboutism, as I've already explained.

 

[Magic Man]

There is a solution.
Send the UN organize new referendums, so you can be sure and convince yourself.

The better solution would be for Russia to get out of there and stop trying to invade Ukraine and cause trouble.

Much better than what the globalist sewer propagandizes.

Interesting that this is your argument. "My propaganda is better than other propaganda.'

Personally I eschew all propaganda. I stick to facts, but that's why I don't defend Russia or overly criticize Ukraine.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

What Putin did with Donbas is what USA did with Kosovo.

My father was born in Kosovo. I can assure you these situations aren't similar.
Also, you say USA, but it was actually NATO.

USA invaded Serbia to help Kosovo become independent.

Right, right,... and it has absolutely nothing to do with the serbian genocide on kosovorans for which Milosevic was convicted, right?

If Flanders want to become independent, will you guys bomb them savagely?

I am from Flanders, so not sure who "you guys" is supposed to be.
I can assure you that more people in Flanders want independence then people in Donbas.
I'm not one of them.

 

[Estro Felino]

The better solution would be for Russia to get out of there and stop trying to invade Ukraine and cause trouble.

With all the utmost respect, I don't think you are in good faith.
The fact that you would deny a second referendum denotes a profound bad faith from you.

Maybe because you do know that most people in Donbas voted for the annexation?

I

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

The referendum ascertained that it was a wish of the whole area.

"Referendums" carried out by occupying forces while holding Kalashnikovs are not legal nor trustworthy.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Tell me the difference with Kosovo.

https://www.icty.org/x/cases/slobodan_milosevic/cis/en/cis_milosevic_slobodan_en.pdf

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

There is a solution.
Send the UN organize new referendums, so you can be sure and convince yourself.

Russia doesn't allow it.

 

[Magic Man]

With all the utmost respect, I don't think you are in good faith.

With all the utmost respect, I don't think your opinion is very meaningful, considering you admit to preferring Russian propaganda.

The fact that you would deny a second referendum denotes a profound bad faith from you.

The fact that you're trying this denotes profound bad faith from you. No one denied a second referendum. You proposed it, and I proposed a better idea. Please don't reply if it's just going to be this dishonesty.

Maybe because you do know that most people in Donbas voted for the annexation?

Or maybe I want Russia to stop meddling in Ukraine's affairs and using weak pretexts to invade them.

 

[Estro Felino]

With all the utmost respect, I don't think your opinion is very meaningful, considering you admit to preferring Russian propaganda.

The fact that you're trying this denotes profound bad faith from you. No one denied a second referendum. You proposed it, and I proposed a better idea. Please don't reply if it's just going to be this dishonesty.

Or maybe I want Russia to stop meddling in Ukraine's affairs and using weak pretexts to invade them.

Okay...when there is a second referendum, we can talk about it.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Okay...when there is a second referendum, we can talk about it.

Russia doesn't allow it. It only allows "referendums" that are under their control, with no independent third party oversight.

Ask your buddy Putin for a cease fire to let the UN organize one. Let's see what happens.
It, off course, is not going to happen.

For the same reason all political opposition in Russia tends to fall off off balconies or die of "heart attacks" in prisons in Siberia.

 

[Estro Felino]

Russia doesn't allow it. It only allows "referendums" that are under their control, with no independent third party oversight.

Ask your buddy Putin for a cease fire to let the UN organize one. Let's see what happens.
It, off course, is not going to happen.

For the same reason all political opposition in Russia tends to fall off off balconies or die of "heart attacks" in prisons in Siberia.

Mr Zely has never done any referendum.
A referendum like "do you want the war to continue, or do you want peace with Russia".

Democracy and Zely are as distant as me and Leonardo Di Caprio (my love).