Ukraine has become a dictatorship, it's official

[Magic Man]

I'm absolutely correct on this point. You are stating opinions.

You're absolutely incorrect on this point. I am stating facts. Continuing to make false claims won't magically make them true.

This is not a fact. It is an opinion.

This is a fact. It is not an opinion. If you don't understand the difference, I'd suggest learning it before trying to have a discussion like this. It'll be much less frustrating for everyone. I'd be happy to explain or point you in the direction of a good explanation.

How do you figure that?

Probably because the act of invading another country is an offensive act.

This is a very opinionated and extremely superficial analysis of history. I could explain why, but that would mean having to write something longer than a paragraph, which I know you won't bother to read.

You definitely described your comments about history well. Luckily, I don't have the same problem. I don't write opinionated and extremely superficial analyses of history. I stick to facts and details. You're welcome to write more paragraphs. I'll even read them, if they don't make false claims or make things up.

I probably would have added more explanatory info to this, but again, you've already said that you don't bother reading most of what I say, so I don't see what the point is.

It's funny to watch you try to accuse me of something while doing the thing you're accusing me of. I'd love to see where I said I don't read most of what you say. I'll give you a small hint: I never said that. I read most of what you say. But thanks for showing you either don't read what I say or you blatantly lie about what I say. Neither is an honest option.

Then don't reply to it. Just stop.

I'd love to, but something so ridiculous still needs to be addressed.

This is really just a minor quibble over a statement made in passing. Basically, you take two statements taken out of context, and have chosen to magnify it beyond any reasonable proportion. Even though I've posted pages and pages here, you're fixated on trifles.

Nope. You made a whole post about it. You thought it was so important that it needed its own post with multiple paragraphs. If it wasn't that important, then don't say it. But then, when I called you on it, instead of either accepting the correction or moving on, you decided it was so important that you had to keep defending it over and over and over, so here we are. After all that, it's dishonest to try to say it's a quibble or said in passing.

This would be a lot more constructive, if you could be honest about it.

 

[Magic Man]

Then perhaps it would be best for you to stop making false claims that I'm defending them.

Done. I did that before I started posting. Now it would be best for you to stop defending Russia.

 

[Magic Man]

No one said that criticising Ukraine means it's OK for Russia to invade them, that's asinine to even suggest such a thing.

What's asinine is blatantly not understanding that criticizing Ukraine is clearly a way to softly justify Russia's invasion. Sure, it's possible to criticize Ukraine without defending Russia, but that's not what's happening. This thread is specifically a criticism of Ukraine in an attempt to justify the invasion.

I never stated that I thought Russia was better than this, I stated "not really," so please, try to pay attention.

Oh! Sorry, I didn't realize you said "not really"! Well, obviously that's a COMPLETELY different thing! It's funny to me that you actually typed this out and hit post thinking it made sense.

 

[ajay0]

They are followers that merely repeat what their masters, Biden et al, tell them, like parrots. That's why straying from the narrative is construed to mean support for Russia. Our masters say unprovoked, our masters say they are supporting democracy, our masters say and we believe.

This is a major problem in the west due to corporate owned media agencies that have to dance to the tune of the propaganda policies set by the deep state plutocrats, which prevents an objective assessment of the situation or any chance of course correction.

In the event of a nuclear holocaust, the same plutocrats can ride them out in their well-supplied bunkers , which is however beyond the means of the western middle and lower classes.

 

[Magic Man]

They are followers that merely repeat what their masters, Biden et al, tell them, like parrots. That's why straying from the narrative is construed to mean support for Russia. Our masters say unprovoked, our masters say they are supporting democracy, our masters say and we believe.

This is the most frustrating part about politics these days. People like you muddying the waters with drivel like this. To any rational person paying attention, it's clearly obvious that you and the others here are parroting Russian propaganda. So, instead of addressing that, you accuse others of your own faults. It's like the rabidly anti-gay politicians who end up having gay affairs.

The very fact that you think the invasion was provoked tells normal people all they need to know about the level of your thinking into this matter.

 

[ajay0]

This is the most frustrating part about politics these days. People like you muddying the waters with drivel like this. To any rational person paying attention, it's clearly obvious that you and the others here are parroting Russian propaganda.

Dude, if a hostile military alliance comes and occupies the high ground next to your house, it is only natural to feel threatened and insecure from a military pov.

If you think it is mere propaganda then it perhaps maybe due to lack of realistic perception.

US-Nato provocation and Russian retaliatory aggression are the culprits in this situation along with a weak UN incapable of diplomatic finesse and foresight in preventing such potentially catastrophic scenarios from arising.

 

[Estro Felino]

Dude, if a hostile military alliance comes and occupies the high ground next to your house, it is only natural to feel threatened and insecure from a military pov.

If you think it is mere propaganda then it perhaps maybe due to lack of realistic perception.

US-Nato provocation and Russian retaliatory aggression are the culprits in this situation along with a weak UN incapable of diplomatic finesse and foresight in preventing such potentially catastrophic scenarios from arising.

Let's not forget all those people who enormously benefit from all this. Economically.
Those who gain billions of dollars by selling weapons.
Imagine if peace broke out in the world. Zero income. Zero sale of warfare.

 

[Magic Man]

Dude, if a hostile military alliance comes and occupies the high ground next to your house, it is only natural to feel threatened and insecure from a military pov.

Dude, if that "hostile military alliance" is NATO, then it's a problem if you're threatened by that. That tells you something right there. You can't just go invading countries because they want to join NATO.

If you think it is mere propaganda then it perhaps maybe due to lack of realistic perception.

What's propaganda is saying the invasion was provoked. Pointing out that it's propaganda is a result of realistic perception.

US-Nato provocation and Russian retaliatory aggression are the culprits in this situation along with a weak UN incapable of diplomatic finesse and foresight in preventing such potentially catastrophic scenarios from arising.

Except Ukraine joining NATO isn't "provocation". Russia didn't retaliate. Putin wanted this war. That's why all this justification for it is propaganda.

 

[Magic Man]

Let's not forget all those people who enormously benefit from all this. Economically.
Those who gain billions of dollars by selling weapons.
Imagine if peace broke out in the world. Zero income. Zero sale of warfare.

Imagine if warmongers like Putin stopped creating wars. I know, I know, let's not criticize innocent old Putin. I mean, he was just reacting understandably to that mean old NATO. I mean, the nerve of them talking about accepting another country into their alliance! What were they thinking!

 

[Estro Felino]

Imagine if warmongers like Putin stopped creating wars. I know, I know, let's not criticize innocent old Putin. I mean, he was just reacting understandably to that mean old NATO. I mean, the nerve of them talking about accepting another country into their alliance! What were they thinking!

With all due respect...I kindly asked you to give your opinion about NATO in the other thread.

 

[Magic Man]

I feel like there should be a post here laying out the situation factually. Here's the source.

With all due respect...I kindly asked you to give your opinion about NATO in the other thread.

With all due respect, yes, you did.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

The sad thing is that people believe this crusade is to save Ukraine.
No ...they couldn't care less about Ukrainians.
They just want to conquer Russia, to seize all its resources.

You should really stop drinking the russian coolaid.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I'd like to hear Putin's side of things.

I don't. It's like Trump's side. Full of lies and you can't believe a word they say.
In fact, you're more likely to be closer to the truth when you take what they say and then understand it to mean the exact opposite.

Putin has lost any and all credibility. And the same goes for his elitist cohorts.
I understand why Ukraine isn't interested in peace talks with those folks. They simply can't be trusted.
As a Ukrainian you are more likely to be poisoned during the meeting then to have an actual constructive dialog.

I mean, very few people wake up and say "I think I'll be a jerk today." Hitler and his henchmen might have but I would still like to hear Putin's side of things and how he sees things. Knowledge is power after all.

Putin's side of things is that he wants to go down in history as another epic Russian Tsar / Emperor.
Another Great Leader.

That's how it goes with narcisist psychopaths with delusions of grandeur.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I'd like to hear his justifications to his people, who are the ones fighting.

We already know those from the russian state propaganda.

It's lies upon lies upon lies.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

There are probably others. And yes, they're true in that they are used as justifications. They are false in that they are in no way the actual reason for the invasion. They have zero interest in "denazification".

Exactly. So much so that they even rejoice when neo-nazi's in Europe win elections.
Because ironically, those neo-nazi's are Russian sympathisers.

Putin and his cohorts don't give a rat's behind about "nazi's".
That, and off course the ironic fact that their claims about Ukraine being ruled by nazi's are just bonkers.

That's just to make it sound good to outsiders. They don't need to invade another country to "defend themselves". And they don't need to "defend the Russian language" in other countries. It's all propaganda.

Yep.

And the more far right people in Europe are, ironically the more they swallow that propaganda.
Go look at the new extreme right faction in Europe. The alliance between Orban (hungary), Vlaams Belang (belgium), etc. All neo-nazi's. All pretty much pro-putin. All against sanctions against russia. All against aid for ukraine.

Ironic, isn't it?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Well, they actually did. WW2 anyone? At least 9 million dead military alone. They were our allies in fact. At least 20 million dead overall.

You might want to brush up on history.

Russia first had a pact with Hitler. They didn't mind Nazi's at all.
They only started fighting when Hitler invaded Russia.

Before Nazi Germany invaded Russia, the Soviet Union was its ally in the war against Poland.

They didn't mind Nazi ideology at all. They minded being attacked.

 

[Magic Man]

I feel like there should be a post here laying out the situation factually. Here's the source.

1) Ukraine publicly stated they want to join NATO, which was met with Russian aggression. Russia has acted aggressively toward other countries in the area who wanted to join NATO too, like Georgia.

2) Tensions came to a head in 2014 after Ukrainians ousted a Russia-aligned president. Russia – under the dubious claim of protecting ethnic Russians and Russian-speakers from Ukrainian persecution – annexed the Crimea region of Ukraine in a move widely condemned by the international community.

3) At about the same time, Russia fomented dissension in the Donbas area of eastern Ukraine, backing a separatist movement in the regions of Donetsk and Luhansk that resulted in armed conflict.

4) Putin recognized the Russian-backed breakaway regions of Donetsk and Luhansk, both located in the disputed Donbas area, as “independent” people’s republics and ordered so-called “peacekeeping” troops into those areas.

5) Russia amassed tens of thousands of troops along the border of Ukraine.

6) Biden talked to Putin twice. NATO and the UN Security Council tried to de-escalate.

7) Putin, specifically, does not want Ukraine to join NATO “not because he has some principled disagreement related to the rule of law or something, it's because he has a might makes right model,” adds Bradley Bowman, the senior director of the Center on Military and Political Power at the Foundation for Defense of Democracies, a non-partisan research institute focused on national security and foreign policy.
“He believes, ‘Hey, Ukraine, I'm more powerful than you, and because I'm more powerful than you, Ukraine, I can tell you what to do and with whom to associate,’” Bowman says.

8) Russia invades.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Yes, they most certainly did. Growing up in a German community (outside of Germany) and of German ancestry I am unfortunately all too well aware of Nazis and neo-Nazis of following generations. Ukraine nazis are definitely a force to this day and so is western media's whitewashing of that reality.

Isn't it ironic that neo-nazi's in europe are in fact russian sympathisers?
They are against aid for ukraine, against sactions against russia and swallow the russian propaganda like it's candy.

You should think things through.

If Ukraine was indeed ruled by neo-nazi's, and if the attack of Russia against Ukraine really was about that, then the neo-nazi's of Europe would be up in arms about it.
Instead, these neo-nazi's are the only allies Putin has in Europe.

Why is it that the Kremlin rejoices when neo-nazi's in Europe win elections?
Why does Orban visit Moscow?

You should pay more attention

 

[Estro Felino]

I feel like there should be a post here laying out the situation factually. Here's the source.

1) Ukraine publicly stated they want to join NATO, which was met with Russian aggression. Russia has acted aggressively toward other countries in the area who wanted to join NATO too, like Georgia.

2) Tensions came to a head in 2014 after Ukrainians ousted a Russia-aligned president. Russia – under the dubious claim of protecting ethnic Russians and Russian-speakers from Ukrainian persecution – annexed the Crimea region of Ukraine in a move widely condemned by the international community.

3) At about the same time, Russia fomented dissension in the Donbas area of eastern Ukraine, backing a separatist movement in the regions of Donetsk and Luhansk that resulted in armed conflict.

4) Putin recognized the Russian-backed breakaway regions of Donetsk and Luhansk, both located in the disputed Donbas area, as “independent” people’s republics and ordered so-called “peacekeeping” troops into those areas.

5) Russia amassed tens of thousands of troops along the border of Ukraine.

6) Biden talked to Putin twice. NATO and the UN Security Council tried to de-escalate.

7) Putin, specifically, does not want Ukraine to join NATO “not because he has some principled disagreement related to the rule of law or something, it's because he has a might makes right model,” adds Bradley Bowman, the senior director of the Center on Military and Political Power at the Foundation for Defense of Democracies, a non-partisan research institute focused on national security and foreign policy.
“He believes, ‘Hey, Ukraine, I'm more powerful than you, and because I'm more powerful than you, Ukraine, I can tell you what to do and with whom to associate,’” Bowman says.

8) Russia invades.

As for 3...are you normalizing that Ukraine has the right to keep Donbas against the Donbas people's will?

It's tyrannical.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Ok...
if I have understood correctly, let's sum it all up:

While I want the war to terminate today because I want no more Ukrainians to die, and no more Russians to die....


you, on the contrary want this war to continue, because you enjoy the fact that Ukrainians kill Russian soldiers, right?

Correct me if I am wrong.

I want the war to stop yesterday. But not by bending over to a bully.

WW2 was horrible as well and I can assure you that those who lived through it wished it over ASAP. But nobody, except collaborators and traitors, would have wanted to terminate the war by bending over and handing over the country to Hitler and his Nazi's.

As horrible as war is, some things are worth fighting for.

Why, btw, do you always focus on stopping the aid to Ukraine for "stopping the war"? Why don't I ever see you say to Putin that he should pull his army out of another sovereign country instead?