Ukraine has become a dictatorship, it's official

[Magic Man]

Absolutely not. I criticize the dictatorship in Kiev.

Exactly what I mean. There is no dictatorship. That's just you unfairly criticizing the country you claim to love.

The people who are forced to go to war are the victims here.

Yes, the victims of Russia's invasion, the invasion by the dictator you love, because a dictatorship is OK with you when it's approved by the propaganda you buy into. It's only bad when it's not approved by that propaganda.

If they were volunteers, there would be no need of compulsory conscription and compulsory recruitment.

That's not how war works, sorry.

The decision taken by the godless and devilish élites that live in your country.
Because it is them who are funding Zelenskyy, ordering him to keep sending Ukrainian soldiers to die in the war.

1) The elites in our country mostly fund the republican party. That party is the one trying not to help Ukraine. It's the same people who support your boy Putin.

2) No one is ordering Zelenskyy to keep sending Ukrainian soldiers to die. Stop with the conspiracy theories. He and Ukraine choose to keep fighting Russia because they don't want to surrender to them, which makes sense. Generally countries aren't fond of other countries taking them over.

But you Americans did that in the forties with us Italians.
We didn't decide anything.
You gave us orders. And we complied with them.
So...enough with normalizing hypocrisy, please.

No, what we did in the 40s with you Italians is to stop you, Germany, Japan and your allies from carrying the Holocaust out further and taking over more countries. The Allies gave orders and you complied because you were trying to do something horrible and we beat you in a war.

Russia shouldn't invade Ukraine and try to take it over.
Italy shouldn't get involved with Germany and help them try to invade other countries while murdering millions of Jews and other minorities.

In both cases the country doing the bad thing should be stopped. In Italy's case, it finally was. Notice how it's not hypocrisy, when you actually look at it honestly, instead of trying to twist things.

This is not a world war. This is similar to the Kosovar war...and you refuse to speak of the Kosovar war.
It's a very tiny war about a territorial controversy.

1) It doesn't matter whether it's a "world war". It has implications for the whole world. And even if it didn't, it's still one country invading another one for no reason.

2) I don't "refuse to speak of Kosovo". You brought it up as a whataboutism. I'm just pointing that out and keeping you on the actual topic.

So you want more Ukrainians to keep dying?
But I don't think you will answer.

Of course I'll answer. I already did. I don't want anyone dying. I want Russia to stop the invasion and go home. That would prevent anyone else from dying, Ukrainians and Russians. This is clearly obvious, and your attempts to twist things are unhelpful.

I am intellectually honest and answer all your questions, I don't see any mutuality, no offense.

You are not intellectually honest. You heavily criticize Ukraine for the same things you either support of at least ignore in Russia.

 

[Estro Felino]

Exactly what I mean. There is no dictatorship. That's just you unfairly criticizing the country you claim to love.

Why do they keep moving to the EU en masse?

Yes, the victims of Russia's invasion, the invasion by the dictator you love, because a dictatorship is OK with you when it's approved by the propaganda you buy into. It's only bad when it's not approved by that propaganda.
That's not how war works, sorry.

I am just disgusted by all those European countries who send weapons to Ukraine, instead of trying to bring peace through dialogue and diplomacy.
It's also forbidden to do anything to make the conflict escalate. They are just warmongers.

1) The elites in our country mostly fund the republican party. That party is the one trying not to help Ukraine. It's the same people who support your boy Putin.

Yes, the Neo-Cons.
People who love war.

2) No one is ordering Zelenskyy to keep sending Ukrainian soldiers to die. Stop with the conspiracy theories. He and Ukraine choose to keep fighting Russia because they don't want to surrender to them, which makes sense. Generally countries aren't fond of other countries taking them over.

The US have taken us over in 1943, yet we love them.

No, what we did in the 40s with you Italians is to stop you, Germany, Japan and your allies from carrying the Holocaust out further and taking over more countries. The Allies gave orders and you complied because you were trying to do something horrible and we beat you in a war.

The war stopped because Italians surrendered. To prevent more people from dying.
What Zelenskyy should do.
You should admit there is lots of Russophobia in the US.
I don't hate Ukrainians. I love them.
I just tell them that sometimes peace is achieved through sacrifice.

 

[Magic Man]

Why do they keep moving to the EU en masse?

1) Do they? You've made this claim before and been asked for support for it. I never saw the support.

I am just disgusted by all those European countries who send weapons to Ukraine, instead of trying to bring peace through dialogue and diplomacy.
It's also forbidden to do anything to make the conflict escalate. They are just warmongers.

It's odd to assume they're not doing anything to bring peace through dialogue and diplomacy. Obviously they are. Those countries and America have tried putting economic pressure on Russia through sanctions. They're doing what they can. Putin wants this war. It's good for him. So, he's not going to be placated easily. We're aiding Ukraine in the fight because it's unlikely Putin will stop without getting major concessions.

Putin is the warmonger. Yet you call others out for his fault and praise him.

Yes, the Neo-Cons.
People who love war.

The US have taken us over in 1943, yet we love them.

They didn't take you over. We defeated you and the other Axis powers in a war to stop you all from committing atrocities. You continued to be your own country.

The war stopped because Italians surrendered. To prevent more people from dying.

Because they were beaten.

What Zelenskyy should do.

No. Italy was on the wrong side doing horrible things. Zelenskyy is defending his country against an unjust invasion.

You should admit there is lots of Russophobia in the US.

Of course there is. Some of it is over the top, but much of it is well earned. And of course the ones who historically were the most anti-Russia are the ones now siding with them more and more. It's fascinating to watch in a sad way.

I don't hate Ukrainians. I love them.

Again, words actually mean things. You can't heavily criticize Ukraine and Ukrainians unfairly and say they should surrender to Russia and then say you love them. That's not how it works.

I just tell them that sometimes peace is achieved through sacrifice.

Why don't you tell that to your boy Putin? Why is it Ukraine who has to "compromise" and "sacrifice"? How about the warmonger himself sacrifices and ends his unjust invasion? That suggestion would show actual love for Ukraine.

 

[Stevicus]

You can keep saying it, but it won't magically become true. You have posted some ridiculous arguments, and there have been many reasonable, cogent arguments pointing out how silly yours are.

Yes, it's getting repetitive, because you and the others keep distracting and deflecting. Instead of actually addressing the ridiculous claims you've made, you hide behind accusations of "McCarthyism" and such. It wouldn't be so repetitive, if you'd take the time to listen and understand and respond honestly.

When I say "McCarthyism," I'm just referring to the overall strident, accusatory tone and the overamped rhetoric I'm observing in this discussion. I know it when I see it, because I've seen it all my life.

Obviously, we disagree. You don't like something I said, and you appear to be quite animated and possibly angry about it. The zeal and tone contained in your posts would also indicate that you are quite passionate about this issue. It's clear that you are a strong supporter of Ukraine to the point where anything which detracts from the firm and unyielding Western governments' pro-Ukrainian position is apparently offensive to you that you see it as automatically pro-Russian. You apparently see this conflict as having only two sides, and unless one is firmly, resolutely, and unreservedly on Ukraine's side, then one is automatically assumed to be on the Russian side.

Within that perception, taking no sides or remaining neutral is deemed equally offensive, as is a general call for peace. This is a general observation I've seen regarding how many people seem to approach the discussions on this. What this means is that, anyone who is not staunchly pro-Ukraine is automatically (and wrongly) deemed "pro-Russian."

I am neither Ukrainian nor Russian, and I have no personal, political, familial, or ancestral connections to either of those nations. I did take an interest in studying Russia during the Cold War, mainly during the late 1970s and 80s, first learning from the U.S. side of things but I also wanted to see what it looked like from the Soviet side of the hill. It's been a hobby, an interest of mine for a long time.

But ultimately, I was born and raised in America, and my point of view is based on what I believe to be best for America's interests. I also understand that this may not jibe with what our policymakers believe to be America's interests, but they tend to think more in terms of corporate interests more than anything else. They've been somewhat reckless these past decades, as exemplified by the current state of the world and the deteriorating political situation within America itself.

 

[Stevicus]

If you admit that Russia is wrong here and should stop their invasion and go home, then just say that and don't spend all this time defending them.

Well, I have said that Russia is wrong from the very outset, but what you characterize as "defending them" is totally off the mark and uncalled for. Sometimes, it's more a matter of "understanding them," not "defending them."

 

[Magic Man]

When I say "McCarthyism," I'm just referring to the overall strident, accusatory tone and the overamped rhetoric I'm observing in this discussion. I know it when I see it, because I've seen it all my life.

Obviously, we disagree. You don't like something I said, and you appear to be quite animated and possibly angry about it. The zeal and tone contained in your posts would also indicate that you are quite passionate about this issue. It's clear that you are a strong supporter of Ukraine to the point where anything which detracts from the firm and unyielding Western governments' pro-Ukrainian position is apparently offensive to you that you see it as automatically pro-Russian. You apparently see this conflict as having only two sides, and unless one is firmly, resolutely, and unreservedly on Ukraine's side, then one is automatically assumed to be on the Russian side.

Within that perception, taking no sides or remaining neutral is deemed equally offensive, as is a general call for peace. This is a general observation I've seen regarding how many people seem to approach the discussions on this. What this means is that, anyone who is not staunchly pro-Ukraine is automatically (and wrongly) deemed "pro-Russian."

I am neither Ukrainian nor Russian, and I have no personal, political, familial, or ancestral connections to either of those nations. I did take an interest in studying Russia during the Cold War, mainly during the late 1970s and 80s, first learning from the U.S. side of things but I also wanted to see what it looked like from the Soviet side of the hill. It's been a hobby, an interest of mine for a long time.

But ultimately, I was born and raised in America, and my point of view is based on what I believe to be best for America's interests. I also understand that this may not jibe with what our policymakers believe to be America's interests, but they tend to think more in terms of corporate interests more than anything else. They've been somewhat reckless these past decades, as exemplified by the current state of the world and the deteriorating political situation within America itself.

*eyeroll*

You keep trying this, and it keeps failing. All this is is an attempt to win through emotion. You try to mischaracterize my posts and thereby dismiss them without actually addressing what they say.

The "Just calm down, why are you so angry?" tactic is a classic one and has more in common with McCarthyism than anything I've said. So, maybe try not using such dishonesty.

The only thing I'm really "animated" about is your wildly false claims coupled with your desperate attempt to paint yourself as the knowledgeable and reasonable one, when you're posting ignorant unreasonable things.

The general call for peace is not offensive. Let's make this clear yet one more time:

EVERYONE WANTS PEACE.

EVERYONE WANTS PEACE.

You're not special for calling for peace, and your insistence on this kind of ridiculous strawman is the cause of the problem here. Yet again, I want peace, which means Russia stopping their invasion and going home. That's actual peace. You suggested Ukraine try diplomacy, as if that hasn't happened, as if that's not the blatantly obvious first step in this.

You're not remaining neutral. You've defended Russia in various ways, which I've pointed out over and over. You can deny it as many times as you want, but it won't change the reality. Saying "The mean old west just keeps invading Russia, so of course they had to invade and take over more land to create a buffer zone to defend themselves" and "Well, clearly they have enough land, so this invasion must be about something else" is defending Russia. That's a fact, whether you admit it or not.

Ultimately, the problem seems to be that you don't like to be corrected, and so instead of engaging honestly with criticism, you lash out with accusations of McCarthyism and believing the West's propaganda. That makes for frustrating discussion for those of us trying to stick to facts and honesty.

 

[Stevicus]

You're not remaining neutral. You've defended Russia in various ways, which I've pointed out over and over. You can deny it as many times as you want, but it won't change the reality.

See, this is the problem, right here. You state your opinionated perception about what I am writing and insist that it is "reality." You are absolutely wrong on this point. You are only giving me your opinion, not "reality." Are you just not aware of the difference between fact and opinion or what?

 

[Magic Man]

See, this is the problem, right here. You state your opinionated perception about what I am writing and insist that it is "reality." You are absolutely wrong on this point. You are only giving me your opinion, not "reality." Are you just not aware of the difference between fact and opinion or what?

Yes, this is the problem right here. You keep trying to make this happen. You keep hiding behind "Nuh uh, that's just an opinion!" instead of actually addressing points.

I am giving you facts. Russia does not and has not expanded for defensive purposes. The idea of invading and taking over other countries for defensive purposes is itself an outlier. You might be able to make the case that it happens in some special cases, but it would be rare, and it doesn't happen in Russia's case. Russia became an empire and then the USSR. That's not defense.

"Russia already has enough land, so clearly they're not doing this just to gain more land." This is absurdly false. It's not even worthy of being replied to, but I'll do it again anyway. The entire premise here is that you personally think they have enough land, as if that personal opinion is more than just your personal opinion. You're saying that your estimation of how much land they should want is the same as theirs. It completely ignores the fact that other people view this differently, especially power-hungry dictators.

These are not opinions. These are facts.

 

[Magic Man]

Well, I have said that Russia is wrong from the very outset, but what you characterize as "defending them" is totally off the mark and uncalled for. Sometimes, it's more a matter of "understanding them," not "defending them."

If your goal is to understand them, then use accurate information, rather than false claims that defend them.

 

[lukethethird]

It makes a lot of difference if you're trying to place blame. It also seems especially convenient how you constantly gripe about America's or NATO's intentions for providing aid, and yet when it comes to Russia's motivations for CARRYING OUT THE INVASION TO BEGIN WITH, suddenly it becomes irrelevant.

Curious, that.


No, actually. You're the one doing that. You genuinely think that because America is involved it's involvement must be bad.


Nope. Never said either of those things, so that's just an outright falsehood that I demand you retract.

I have never made a "god and country" argument. I support Ukraine's right to fight against annexation and invasion.


I prefer countries that are democracies not be taken over by countries that aren't, yes. I support that.


This is a weird statement to make, as if I am advocating sending troops in, or advocating for anything other than providing support for Ukraine to defend themselves and a preference for Russia to stop invading them.

Not a single coherent argument out of you yet. Just repeating bumper-sticker phrases and this false pretence of ideological superiority (while displaying no actual coherent ideology).

So, I will make my position known. I'm anti-war, anti-imperialism and pro-democracy. That's why I don't like Russia (an imperialist non-democracy) invading Ukraine (a democracy), and I am upset that Russia started a needless war that has left thousands of Russians and Ukrainians dead. It is also why I support the rights of Ukraine to maintain their independence and prevent Russian annexation through military means, and I support Ukraine's allies providing that support so that Ukraine and its citizens can defend themselves against - and perhaps even repel - Russian invasion.

Please, point to the ideological flaw or inconsistency in this position.

Nato is using Ukraine to weaken Russia, US secretary of state said as much.

Boris Johnson stopped peace talks and talk of defending democracy is glorifying this war.

The US aided in a coup that overthrew a democratically elected president because his policies favoured Russia.

Ukraine is not even a federation so it really isn't much of a democracy to begin with.

Putin is a war criminal for sending the troops in, pure and simple.

It's a war, not a game, I am not picking sides, that is for psychopaths to engage in.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Nato is using Ukraine to weaken Russia, US secretary of state said as much.

To use your own argument: what difference does it make why NATO aids Ukraine?

Also, provide evidence.

Boris Johnson stopped peace talks and talk of defending democracy is glorifying this war.

Did Boris Johnson really sabotage peace talks between Russia and Ukraine? The reality is more complicated | Emma Ashford

A recent study shows the reasons the 2022 talks failed are more nuanced than critics suggest, says Emma Ashford of the Stimson Center, Washington DC

www.theguardian.com

Stop spreading misinformation.

The US aided in a coup that overthrew a democratically elected president because his policies favoured Russia.

Deliberate lies by omission. Yanokuvych was ousted from power following a popular revolt against his policies, and after bringing in the police and Russian soldiers to SHOOT OVER A HUNDRED PROTESTERS:

Revolution of Dignity - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Euromaidan - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Do you not think it's very odd how you miss out those details and try to make it sound like it was a direct coup carried out by the US?

Ukraine is not even a federation so it really isn't much of a democracy to begin with.

"Who cares about Ukraine? What even is it, anyway? Who even cares about popular rule and what civilians want? They don't matter."

Putin is a war criminal for sending the troops in, pure and simple.

Good stuff. About time.

It's a war, not a game, I am not picking sides, that is for psychopaths to engage in.

Then stop trying to pretend this is all America's fault, and stop deliberately misrepresenting history.

Including, y'know, completely skipping over the deaths of over a hundred protesters because you want to cast America as the bad guys for daring to support a popular revolt against a leader who killed hundreds of his own citizens, violently put down dissent and enacted draconian censorship laws.

Again, weird that you miss this stuff out.

 

[Magic Man]

Nato is using Ukraine to weaken Russia, US secretary of state said as much.

Link?

Boris Johnson stopped peace talks and talk of defending democracy is glorifying this war.

Peace talks that were only necessary because Putin wanted to invade. Talk of defending Ukraine is glorifying the freedom of a country from being taken over.

The US aided in a coup that overthrew a democratically elected president because his policies favoured Russia.

Link? Preferably something other than Putin making the claim.

Ukraine is not even a federation so it really isn't much of a democracy to begin with.

Can you explain what that's supposed to mean?

Putin is a war criminal for sending the troops in, pure and simple.

It's a war, not a game, I am not picking sides, that is for psychopaths to engage in.

Except that the rest of your post above was criticizing America and the UK and downplaying Ukraine's democracy. All of that works to defend Russia and this invasion, whether or not you want to admit it. If you do agree Putin is a war criminal, and this invasion is wrong and a crime, then just say that and don't try to defend it.

 

[Revoltingest]

Thank you for your honesty.

Why bother?
I'm always honest.

You probably only want Ukrainians to be used as cannon fodder to weaken Russia and to kill as many Russian soldiers as possible.
If you admitted to that, I would appreciate you for your honesty and fairness.

That's a specious speculation.
But killing Russian soldiers is a means to an end.
If they don't like being killed, they shouldn't invade.

 

[Estro Felino]

Why bother?
I'm always honest.

That's a specious speculation.
But killing Russian soldiers is a means to an end.
If they don't like being killed, they shouldn't invade.

The problem is not the invaders.
The problem is Russians. Period.

Americans hate all Russians, even the pacifist ones.
Since private citizens' assets have been seized in the West.

It's not against Putin. It's against Russians.

 

[lukethethird]

To use your own argument: what difference does it make why NATO aids Ukraine?

Also, provide evidence.

Did Boris Johnson really sabotage peace talks between Russia and Ukraine? The reality is more complicated | Emma Ashford

A recent study shows the reasons the 2022 talks failed are more nuanced than critics suggest, says Emma Ashford of the Stimson Center, Washington DC

www.theguardian.com

Stop spreading misinformation.


Deliberate lies by omission. Yanokuvych was ousted from power following a popular revolt against his policies, and after bringing in the police and Russian soldiers to SHOOT OVER A HUNDRED PROTESTERS:

Revolution of Dignity - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Euromaidan - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Do you not think it's very odd how you miss out those details and try to make it sound like it was a direct coup carried out by the US?


"Who cares about Ukraine? What even is it, anyway? Who even cares about popular rule and what civilians want? They don't matter."


Good stuff. About time.


Then stop trying to pretend this is all America's fault, and stop deliberately misrepresenting history.

Including, y'know, completely skipping over the deaths of over a hundred protesters because you want to cast America as the bad guys for daring to support a popular revolt against a leader who killed hundreds of his own citizens, violently put down dissent and enacted draconian censorship laws.

Again, weird that you miss this stuff out.

I missed that stuff out because it is not true. I don't defend Russia and I don't defend the US and nato's role in all of this.

 

[Revoltingest]

The problem is not the invaders.
The problem is Russians. Period.

Russians are the invaders.

Americans hate all Russians, even the pacifist ones.

Your posts show no expertise on Ameristanian thought.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I missed that stuff out because it is not true.

Wow!

You're seriously going to actually pretend that Euromaidan and the revolution of Dignity literally didn't happen????

See, there's historical revisionism, and then there's what you're doing. I don't even know what to call it.

Historical... ahistoricism?

I just don't know how to deal with the argument "Those very widely reported on and documented events never happened". I mean, where do we go from here? Any other history you're just going to pretend didn't happen?

I don't defend Russia and I don't defend the US and nato's role in all of this.

You literally have nothing to say to all of the facts I linked to, and you have no response to the allegation that you deliberately ignored THE DEATHS OF OVER A HUNDRED PROTESTERS DURING A POPULAR REVOLUTION AGAINST A RULER WHO CALLED IN RUSSIAN SOLDIERS TO KILL HIS OWN CITIZENS AND SILENCE OPPOSITION.

You're just going to bald-facedly pretend you didn't do that?

 

[Estro Felino]

Russians are the invaders.

Your posts show no expertise on Ameristanian thought.

Americans have been hating Russians since the birth of Socialism.
They hate them for spreading that dangerous ideology.

 

[Revoltingest]

Americans have been....

More specious claims.
You don't know **** about us.
But I know that you guys supported Hitler.

 

[Estro Felino]

More specious claims.
You don't know **** about us.
But I know that you guys supported Hitler.

I have never seen someone in Europe describing Socialism as the evil incarnate. As Satan himself.
Only in America I have...so....