Ukraine has become a dictatorship, it's official

[Revoltingest]

I have never seen....

What you see isn't necessarily reality.

 

[lukethethird]

Wow!

You're seriously going to actually pretend that Euromaidan and the revolution of Dignity literally didn't happen????

See, there's historical revisionism, and then there's what you're doing. I don't even know what to call it.

Historical... ahistoricism?

I just don't know how to deal with the argument "Those very widely reported on and documented events never happened". I mean, where do we go from here? Any other history you're just going to pretend didn't happen?


You literally have nothing to say to all of the facts I linked to, and you have no response to the allegation that you deliberately ignored THE DEATHS OF OVER A HUNDRED PROTESTERS DURING A POPULAR REVOLUTION AGAINST A RULER WHO CALLED IN RUSSIAN SOLDIERS TO KILL HIS OWN CITIZENS AND SILENCE OPPOSITION.

You're just going to bald-facedly pretend you didn't do that?

I know what most of the western press reports about the maidan coup. Western corporate media elites share the same elitist interests as the politicians they protect. Wikipedia contradicts itself, it is not reliable half the time when it comes to topics such as religion and politics.

• Which brings Cohen to another prevailing media myth: that what occurred on Maidan in February 2014 was a “democratic revolution.” Whether it was in fact a “revolution” can be left to future historians, though most of the oligarchic powers that afflicted Ukraine before 2014 remain in place four years later, along with their corrupt practices. As for “democratic,” removing a legally elected president by threatening his life hardly qualifies. Nor does the peremptory way the new government was formed, the constitution changed, and pro-Yanukovych parties banned. Though the overthrow involved people in the streets, this was a coup. How much of it was spontaneous and how much directed, or inspired, by high-level actors in the West also remains unclear. But one other myth needs to be dispelled. The rush to seize Yanukovych’s residence was triggered by snipers who killed some 80 or more protesters and policemen on Maidan. It was long said that the snipers had been sent by Yanukovych, but it has now been virtually proven that the shooters were instead from the neofascist group Right Sector among the protesters on the square. (See, for example, the reports of the scholar Ivan Katchanovski.) bold is mine

Here is a link: Four Years of Ukraine and the Myths of Maidan

Ivan Katchanovski​

The 'Snipers' Massacre' on the Maidan in Ukraine

This academic investigation concludes that the massacre was a false flag operation, which was rationally planned and carried out with a goal of the overthrow of the government and seizure of power. It found various evidence of the involvement of an alliance of the far right organizations, specifically the Right Sector and Svoboda, and oligarchic parties, such as Fatherland. Concealed shooters and spotters were located in at least 20 Maidan-controlled buildings or areas. The various evidence that the protesters were killed from these locations include some 70 testimonies, primarily by Maidan protesters, several videos of “snipers” targeting protesters from these buildings, comparisons of positions of the specific protesters at the time of their killing and their entry wounds, and bullet impact signs. The study uncovered various videos and photos of armed Maidan “snipers” and spotters in many of these buildings.

The paper presents implications of these findings for understanding the nature of the change of the government in Ukraine, the civil war in Donbas, Russian military intervention in Crimea and Donbas, and an international conflict between the West and Russia over Ukraine.

 

[Estro Felino]

I know what most of the western press reports about the maidan coup. Western corporate media elites share the same elitist interests as the politicians they protect. Wikipedia contradicts itself, it is not reliable half the time when it comes to topics such as religion and politics.

• Which brings Cohen to another prevailing media myth: that what occurred on Maidan in February 2014 was a “democratic revolution.” Whether it was in fact a “revolution” can be left to future historians, though most of the oligarchic powers that afflicted Ukraine before 2014 remain in place four years later, along with their corrupt practices. As for “democratic,” removing a legally elected president by threatening his life hardly qualifies. Nor does the peremptory way the new government was formed, the constitution changed, and pro-Yanukovych parties banned. Though the overthrow involved people in the streets, this was a coup. How much of it was spontaneous and how much directed, or inspired, by high-level actors in the West also remains unclear. But one other myth needs to be dispelled. The rush to seize Yanukovych’s residence was triggered by snipers who killed some 80 or more protesters and policemen on Maidan. It was long said that the snipers had been sent by Yanukovych, but it has now been virtually proven that the shooters were instead from the neofascist group Right Sector among the protesters on the square. (See, for example, the reports of the scholar Ivan Katchanovski.)

Here is a link: Four Years of Ukraine and the Myths of Maidan

I am tired, tired, tired, tired, tired, tired, tired, tired, tired, tired, tired, tired, tired, tired
of trying to make Americans understand that the Russians were provoked first.
I am not saying that I justify their methods.

But Americans won't believe me.

 

[lukethethird]

I am tired, tired, tired, tired, tired, tired, tired, tired, tired, tired, tired, tired, tired, tired
of trying to make Americans understand that the Russians were provoked first.
I am not saying that I justify their methods.

But Americans won't believe me.
I am tired of being gaslighted by them.

I am expecting these reports to be dismissed out of hand just as the last time reports that I linked to were, they also came to these same conclusions.

 

[lukethethird]

Link?

Peace talks that were only necessary because Putin wanted to invade. Talk of defending Ukraine is glorifying the freedom of a country from being taken over.

Link? Preferably something other than Putin making the claim.

Can you explain what that's supposed to mean?

Except that the rest of your post above was criticizing America and the UK and downplaying Ukraine's democracy. All of that works to defend Russia and this invasion, whether or not you want to admit it. If you do agree Putin is a war criminal, and this invasion is wrong and a crime, then just say that and don't try to defend it.

Ukraine is not a federation. This means that Kiev basically rules because unlike a federation, there is no representation from any of the provinces or states that make up the country, no seats or house of representatives. The president basically dictates policy for the 5 years he or she is elected for.

Criticising US foreign policy does not defend Russia, that is an asinine suggestion.

 

[Estro Felino]

I am expecting these reports to be dismissed out of hand just as the last time reports that I linked to were, they also came to these same conclusions.

It's like the wife who finds her husband's mistress under the bed....
she will always says that her husband is the most faithful husband ever.

 

[Magic Man]

Ukraine is not a federation. This means that Kiev basically rules because unlike a federation, there is no representation from any of the provinces or states that make up the country, no seats or house of representatives. The president basically dictates policy for the 5 years he or she is elected for.

Uh, what? They have a president and parliament, who share executive power, and they are elected by the whole country.

And of course, this has nothing to do with anything. Whether they're a federation, a republic, a full democracy, or something else, none of it means it's OK for Russia to invade them.

Criticising US foreign policy does not defend Russia, that is an asinine suggestion.

What's asinine is defending Russia and then pretending not to. You didn't simply criticize American foreign policy. You heavily and unfairly criticized American and British policy, while saying you're "disappointed" in Russia because you thought they were better than this.

 

[Magic Man]

I am tired, tired, tired, tired, tired, tired, tired, tired, tired, tired, tired, tired, tired, tired
of trying to make Americans understand that the Russians were provoked first.

Good, then you can stop. I'd prefer you didn't try to spread Russian propaganda anymore anyway.

I am not saying that I justify their methods.

Good. Neither their cause nor their methods are right.

But Americans won't believe me.

Some will. Trump supporters would be likely too. Trump loves Putin because he wants to be a strongman dictator just like him. So his supporters buy into Russian propaganda just like you do.

 

[Stevicus]

Yes, this is the problem right here. You keep trying to make this happen. You keep hiding behind "Nuh uh, that's just an opinion!" instead of actually addressing points.

I'm absolutely correct on this point. You are stating opinions.

I am giving you facts. Russia does not and has not expanded for defensive purposes.

This is not a fact. It is an opinion.

The idea of invading and taking over other countries for defensive purposes is itself an outlier.

How do you figure that?

You might be able to make the case that it happens in some special cases, but it would be rare, and it doesn't happen in Russia's case. Russia became an empire and then the USSR. That's not defense.

This is a very opinionated and extremely superficial analysis of history. I could explain why, but that would mean having to write something longer than a paragraph, which I know you won't bother to read.

"Russia already has enough land, so clearly they're not doing this just to gain more land." This is absurdly false.

I probably would have added more explanatory info to this, but again, you've already said that you don't bother reading most of what I say, so I don't see what the point is.

It's not even worthy of being replied to, but I'll do it again anyway.

Then don't reply to it. Just stop.

The entire premise here is that you personally think they have enough land, as if that personal opinion is more than just your personal opinion. You're saying that your estimation of how much land they should want is the same as theirs. It completely ignores the fact that other people view this differently, especially power-hungry dictators.

These are not opinions. These are facts.

This is really just a minor quibble over a statement made in passing. Basically, you take two statements taken out of context, and have chosen to magnify it beyond any reasonable proportion. Even though I've posted pages and pages here, you're fixated on trifles.

 

[Stevicus]

If your goal is to understand them, then use accurate information, rather than false claims that defend them.

Then perhaps it would be best for you to stop making false claims that I'm defending them.

 

[lukethethird]

Uh, what? They have a president and parliament, who share executive power, and they are elected by the whole country.

And of course, this has nothing to do with anything. Whether they're a federation, a republic, a full democracy, or something else, none of it means it's OK for Russia to invade them.

What's asinine is defending Russia and then pretending not to. You didn't simply criticize American foreign policy. You heavily and unfairly criticized American and British policy, while saying you're "disappointed" in Russia because you thought they were better than this.

No one said that criticising Ukraine means it's OK for Russia to invade them, that's asinine to even suggest such a thing.

I never stated that I thought Russia was better than this, I stated "not really," so please, try to pay attention.

 

[lukethethird]

Then perhaps it would be best for you to stop making false claims that I'm defending them.

It appears that not following the narrative that we are fed is construed to mean a defence of Russia. Binary mindset, McCarthyism 2.0, What a way to think, well, it's not really thinking at all, it's just being obedient to ones masters. I trust the Russian powers that be as much as I trust the nato powers that be, and that is not much at all.

 

[Revoltingest]

I trust the Russian powers that be as much as I trust the nato powers that be, and that is not much at all.

Do you object of Russia's invasion of Ukraine?

 

[lukethethird]

Do you object of Russia's invasion of Ukraine?

What kind of stupid question is that?

 

[Revoltingest]

What kind of stupid question is that?

One that you didn't answer.

 

[lukethethird]

One that you didn't answer.

Play your little games with someone else.

 

[Revoltingest]

Play your little games with someone else.

Unwilling to answer a question
that would clarify your views
about the invasion, eh.
This speaks volumes.

 

[Estro Felino]

Unwilling to answer a question
that would clarify your views
about the invasion, eh.
This speaks volumes.

I think answering questions should be something mutual.
Something one does. Not something one demands without doing it.

 

[Stevicus]

It appears that not following the narrative that we are fed is construed to mean a defence of Russia. Binary mindset, McCarthyism 2.0, What a way to think, well, it's not really thinking at all, it's just being obedient to ones masters. I trust the Russian powers that be as much as I trust the nato powers that be, and that is not much at all.

Yeah. I've grown used to it over the course of my life.

 

[lukethethird]

I am tired, tired, tired, tired, tired, tired, tired, tired, tired, tired, tired, tired, tired, tired
of trying to make Americans understand that the Russians were provoked first.
I am not saying that I justify their methods.

But Americans won't believe me.

They are followers that merely repeat what their masters, Biden et al, tell them, like parrots. That's why straying from the narrative is construed to mean support for Russia. Our masters say unprovoked, our masters say they are supporting democracy, our masters say and we believe.