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Understanding the holy scriptures is impossible unless God gives you the interpretation

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Question Everything
Hey, god can't be wrong!
or, God could be purposefully stirring up contention by telling each religious group conflicting doctrines.

You are chosen...

You - you are the ones really chosen with authority

No no - you, your group is the only way to heaven...

Tower of Babble ... should we all worship a being who creates contention, divides, separates, false compliments, ...
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Anything you paid for has already been spent by the government. You are accepting checks charged to the accounts of current workers
OK. Did you have a greater point? Perhaps you think I should refuse those payments.
I guess when you are the mediator of your own ethics, stealing candy from children would be permissible.
If you're still referring to Social Security, yes, accepting and depositing my Social Security checks is ethical by my standards.
current workers, who will have no funds when they retire
I don't know if that's correct, but I have often said that growing up in America today is a poor value relative to living in, working in, paying taxes to, and receiving benefits from a healthy, modern socialistic democracy. Mexicans get very little in the way of social benefits, but they pay very little in taxes. Western Europeans and Canadians pay a lot of taxes but get cradle-to-grave benefits. Americans pay almost as much as Europeans (or as much when you add in costs like medical expenses and daycare that are subsidized in these social democracies), and according to you, shouldn't expect to receive Social Security themselves. It seems t me that young Americans would do well to expatriate now and begin earning such benefits abroad.
a country you have already denounced.
Departed, not denounced. I don't judge America except to say that its future seems uncertain, its culture unhealthy, and I don't want to live there. I wish it well but am no longer a part of it or doing any of the things for it that I used to do such as own an American home, rent American office space, hire Americans, spend in American businesses, contribute to American charities, vote in American elections, or pay taxes to American governments.

But that doesn't mean that I don't hope it get its act together.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
OK. Did you have a greater point? Perhaps you think I should refuse those payments.

If you're still referring to Social Security, yes, accepting and depositing my Social Security checks is ethical by my standards.

I don't know if that's correct, but I have often said that growing up in America today is a poor value relative to living in, working in, paying taxes to, and receiving benefits from a healthy, modern socialistic democracy. Mexicans get very little in the way of social benefits, but they pay very little in taxes. Western Europeans and Canadians pay a lot of taxes but get cradle-to-grave benefits. Americans pay almost as much as Europeans (or as much when you add in costs like medical expenses and daycare that are subsidized in these social democracies), and according to you, shouldn't expect to receive Social Security themselves. It seems t me that young Americans would do well to expatriate now and begin earning such benefits abroad.

Departed, not denounced. I don't judge America except to say that its future seems uncertain, its culture unhealthy, and I don't want to live there. I wish it well but am no longer a part of it or doing any of the things for it that I used to do such as own an American home, rent American office space, hire Americans, spend in American businesses, contribute to American charities, vote in American elections, or pay taxes to American governments.

But that doesn't mean that I don't hope it get its act together.
I suppose most immigrants to USA are economic
migrants.

I did live in NYC for five yrs, but my interests
are better served by being here.

The crude level of general education, the fractiousness/
lack of unity and national purpose are among issues
that cooled and ended any thoughts i'd had about
permanent residence.
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
No, that does not sound good to me but I blame the government for that, not the people who paid into social security.
The people getting paid by the government, are the people who voted for that government. Biden is trying to forgive student debt so as to get more votes from young voters, whether it is legal or not. It is the same with social security. People vote for people who promise them money stolen from future generations. It is all a Ponzi scheme which is going to crack and fail. Inflation can help pay of the existing debt, but social security is always a rising figure, with rising numbers and amounts forked out, with reduced number of payees.
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
OK. Did you have a greater point? Perhaps you think I should refuse those payments.
Why not. A person with a real conscience would refuse those payments. You already said you don't use them. On the other hand, you indicated you hate the U.S. and cashing their checks will inevitably cause their fall. You miss the point that the fall of the U.S. results in the fall of the world as well.
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
I don't know if that's correct, but I have often said that growing up in America today is a poor value relative to living in, working in, paying taxes to, and receiving benefits from a healthy, modern socialistic democracy. Mexicans get very little in the way of social benefits, but they pay very little in taxes. Western Europeans and Canadians pay a lot of taxes but get cradle-to-grave benefits. Americans pay almost as much as Europeans (or as much when you add in costs like medical expenses and daycare that are subsidized in these social democracies), and according to you, shouldn't expect to receive Social Security themselves. It seems t me that young Americans would do well to expatriate now and begin earning such benefits abroad.
Expat countries are closing working and visa rules. Jobs are harder to get even with NGOs. As for Canada, and places like the UK, if they have a medical emergency, they will go to the U.S., or get on a waiting list till they die. It now takes around $300,000 to now get a resident Mexican Visa. Not an amount generally found in the pockets of "young Americans". America is degenerating because of Progressive policies enacted by the politicians, that other woke Progressives, such as yourself, voted for. Don't worry, I think it will all catch up with you. It is called Karma. There is a reason that you call yourself Catholic when going for Mexican medical treatment. Unlike Progressive leaders such as Biden and Pelosi, who have their own demons, Mexican Catholics are conservative by nature.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
You miss the point that the fall of the U.S. results in the fall of the world as well.
The present system is going to collapse all over the world and a new system will replace it. It is just a matter of time.

“Beseech ye the one true God to grant that all men may be graciously assisted to fulfil that which is acceptable in Our sight. Soon will the present-day order be rolled up, and a new one spread out in its stead. Verily, thy Lord speaketh the truth, and is the Knower of things unseen.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 6-7
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I suppose most immigrants to USA are economic migrants.
Usually, but some are escaping political unrest / seeking asylum.
The people getting paid by the government, are the people who voted for that government.
You seem to have a problem with that. And when you say paid by the government, you make it sound like a gift or charity. Government funds (with a few minor exceptions) are dollars given to the government for safekeeping, and it's appropriate to take more dollars out than one put in for two reasons. My first payments to the government were in 1984 dollars, which were spent by the government in 1984 when they bought more than 2024 dollars, and which could not be invested or earn interest
A person with a real conscience would refuse those payments.
Disagree. There's no reason for me to give those dollars to the United States.
you indicated you hate the U.S
No, I didn't. I "hated" living there, but I explicitly stated that I mean it no harm and wish it well. I told you that I felt alienated living there, not fully an American according to the Pledge and the money and a former president. I don't love America anymore, but I also don't hate it. America was good to me in the first half of my life, and I'm grateful to have been born there when I was.

But that's all changed. The people have been severely dumbed down by conservative indoctrination media. Contention is in the air and palpable. So is insecurity. Will there still be a democracy with fair elections there by the decade's end? Extreme weather is headlines much of the time and threatens large numbers of people per event. Prices are artificially high. Gun violence is epidemic. Racism is rampant. Tantrumming has become a national pastime. Theocracy is the latest rage. The Supreme Court is rogue and will be for decades. Multiple anti-democratic MAGA Republicans in government are cooperating with Putin.

That's not a country I can love or respect any more, nor is it one I want to live in, especially when I can find happier people, better weather, and better prices a few hundred miles to the south, which by itself makes Mexico more appealing than America for a retiree even without all of those problems I mentioned in the States.

I liken America to a formerly good and loving mother who has gone demented and is angry and hateful now (like Trump). We love her for what she was and what she did for us once but find her rather unpleasant to be around now.
America is degenerating because of Progressive policies enacted by the politicians
I've already disagreed with that. That is due mostly to the repealing the Fairness Doctrine and the incessant indoctrination of an increasingly susceptible electorate who are helping their enemies harm them by electing Republicans.
There is a reason that you call yourself Catholic when going for Mexican medical treatment. Unlike Progressive leaders such as Biden and Pelosi, who have their own demons, Mexican Catholics are conservative by nature.
The reason is because too many Christians are atheophobic bigots, although I think that that is more the case with American evangelical Protestants than Mexican Catholics. Religion hasn't been weaponized here. It is still harmful, but only to the adherents, who it helps keep poor, superstitious, uneducated, and the girls pregnant. It also keeps pets terrified with its frequent holidays and bottle rocket celebrations.

In America, Christianity is damaging not just its adherents, but also their non-Christian neighbors.
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
You seem to have a problem with that. And when you say paid by the government, you make it sound like a gift or charity. Government funds (with a few minor exceptions) are dollars given to the government for safekeeping, and it's appropriate to take more dollars out than one put in for two reasons. My first payments to the government were in 1984 dollars, which were spent by the government in 1984 when they bought more than 2024 dollars, and which could not be invested or earn interest
The government didn't put SS assets up for safe keeping. They spent them on stupid programs and got reelected in so doing. The poor pay SS on their whole salary, the rich do not, and their limit is capped at around 7% of $168,000. Salaries in 1984 were much less than those in 2024, which until Biden got elected, evened out the discrepancy in purchasing power. The fact is that the well to do, get more out of social security, than the poor, and the poor are least able to pay it. Your "empathy" towards the poor seems a little lacking. Someone might just take away your "woke" card. It will be the poor young generation, who will not be able to buy a house, due to inflation, caused by spending money which does not exist, and they will have no social security to fall on. According to the government, SS payments will have to be cut around 35% in 2035, when the outflows over takes inflows. The young naive Progressive woke youth are supporting their own execution..
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
I've already disagreed with that. That is due mostly to the repealing the Fairness Doctrine and the incessant indoctrination of an increasingly susceptible electorate who are helping their enemies harm them by electing Republicans.
Fox generally presents both views. Try watching Gutfelt. Whereas the Progressive news channels such as CNN only present the Progressive narrative. Your fairness doctrine argument doesn't hold water. The election is being challenged by the independents and democrats who are now voting for Trump, all based on bread-and-butter arguments. They don't like crime, inflation, illegal immigration, DEI, and a president who doesn't know what the day it is or where he is at.
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
The reason is because too many Christians are atheophobic bigots, although I think that that is more the case with American evangelical Protestants than Mexican Catholics. Religion hasn't been weaponized here. It is still harmful, but only to the adherents, who it helps keep poor, superstitious, uneducated, and the girls pregnant. It also keeps pets terrified with its frequent holidays and bottle rocket celebrations.

In America, Christianity is damaging not just its adherents, but also their non-Christian neighbors.
I don't know, but I don't think Americans care one way or other whether you are an atheist. What they don't like are woke humanistic Marxist Progressives, who push their superior humanistic standards on the people through the government officials they elect. It seems a little strange that they can make a call that there is no god, when they set themselves up as their own god. Did you read Soro's book, whereas he considered himself a new Christ/god. Not that he doesn't believe that, but that so many people take his money (sell their soul) to facilitate his goals.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The fact is that the well to do, get more out of social security, than the poor ... the poor are least able to pay it.
The poor? Social Security is paid by people who are working, and the payment is proportionate to income up to a cap. And the well to do don't benefit from their Social Security checks at all.
The young naive Progressive woke youth are supporting their own execution..
I wonder why you keep telling me things like this? This has nothing to do with my life. I don't live among them. That doesn't describe the people around me, who are mostly Catholic Mexicans and irreligious or minimally religious expats, who are mostly older. Many of the young Mexicans are progressive, and I know a few who are atheists. Most Mexicans seem "woke" to me, by which I mean empathetic and family and community centered. That is, more than Americans, they function as a unified whole and support one another emotionally and economically.
The election is being challenged by the independents and democrats who are now voting for Trump, all based on bread-and-butter arguments.
You live in a different universe than I do. Trump has lost the left, most of the middle, and many on the right:

'Character is too important': Paul Ryan says he'll write in a candidate, won't vote for Trump

Were you aware that Nikki Haley got about 22% of the vote in the closed Republican primary in Indiana last Tuesday? She dropped out of the race two months ago, yet 22% of Republicans who voted made the effort to vote against Trump.
I don't think Americans care one way or other whether you are an atheist.
Many don't, but many despise atheists. The call us immoral, rebellious, hedonistic, and accusing us of usurping God's role.
It seems a little strange that they can make a call that there is no god, when they set themselves up as their own god.
Agnostic atheists don't say that there is no god. They say that there isn't sufficient evidence to conclude that gods do or do not exist, and so neither believe that they do or that they don't exist.

I don't need a higher authority in my life than myself. I once had parents, teachers, and babysitters that had authority over me when I was young, but I've outgrown them all and assumed the control they once had myself.
Did you read Soro's book, whereas he considered himself a new Christ/god. Not that he doesn't believe that, but that so many people take his money (sell their soul) to facilitate his goals.
No. But why would I? And why would I care if you were correct?

Take a moment and try to imagine how different my life in Mexico is from yours in America, and why almost none of the things that matter to you matter to me. It's not an accident or coincidence that that is the case. That was the plan - to disengage from American life and culture. One of the benefits of that is that almost nothing in the American news is relevant to my life anymore. Supreme Court decisions don't matter any more. The US Constitution doesn't matter (my rights come from elsewhere now). We're removed from the college demonstrations and the mass shootings. The outcomes of American elections don't directly impact us.

Yet here you are repeatedly giving me updates and heads-up warnings about it all. I don't mind that you do, but it's not useful or interesting to me.
 
Deuteronomy 23:15-16 ESV

"You shall not give up to his master a slave who has escaped from his master to you. He shall dwell with you, in your midst, in the place that he shall choose within one of your towns, wherever it suits him. You shall not wrong him.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
It is just apologetics. In other words lying for Jesus and I am not very impressed by it.

As a Mormon how do you deal with the clearly fictitious parts of the Bible? Do you have to believe the Flood myth? Do you have to believe the Adam and Eve myth?
You'd probably do better if you do not continue making presumptions and rephrase your arguments. But anyway -- that's where I stop now because there's more to it. :)
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
You'd probably do better if you do not continue making presumptions and rephrase your arguments. But anyway -- that's where I stop now because there's more to it. :)
No, my argument is spot on. One thing as an ex-Christian that I despise are people that argue dishonestly for the faith. It is far better to own up to the flaws in the scriptures than to pretend that those errors do not exist. One is openly declaring that one cannot reason rationally when they cannot handle a few flaws.

And you need to remember the burden of proof. If you claim that someone made a presumption you must be able to demonstrate that they did so. Otherwise you are making a false personal attack against them.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Rational thought has to be rational to others. Not to just yourself. That was about the worst claim that you could have made.


You clearly do not. You may believe it, but to know that your God exists you would need to be able to demonstrate how you know that.
Yet you're saying that you KNOW that something came about on the earth by chemical means called abiogenesis, no divine power involved, isn't that right?
 
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YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
No, my argument is spot on. One thing as an ex-Christian that I despise are people that argue dishonestly for the faith.
No, it's not. You say you are an ex-Christian. Thank you for mentioning that. I thought you were always an atheist.
You do agree don't you that there are many disparities among the various sectors of Christendom, don't you?
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
No, my argument is spot on. One thing as an ex-Christian that I despise are people that argue dishonestly for the faith. It is far better to own up to the flaws in the scriptures than to pretend that those errors do not exist. One is openly declaring that one cannot reason rationally when they cannot handle a few flaws.

And you need to remember the burden of proof. If you claim that someone made a presumption you must be able to demonstrate that they did so. Otherwise you are making a false personal attack against them.
There are questions, and there are researchers. Not all biblical scholars agree on certain features of the Bible, including passages requiring astute research as to why. Again, it's like the word 'day.' Better than that would be the 7th day in Genesis, when God rested.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
One thing as an ex-Christian that I despise are people that argue dishonestly for the faith. It is far better to own up to the flaws in the scriptures than to pretend that those errors do not exist.
I absolutely agree. I have no patience with believers who do logical backflips rather than admit to serious problems. Conversely, I have enormous respect for those who say, "I really don't have an answer for this, but I still have a meaningful faith."
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Yet you're saying that you KNOW that something came about on the earth by chemical means called abiogenesis, no divine power involved, isn't that right?
No, I have said that there is only evidence for natural chemical abiogenesis. And that not all problems have been solved. There is no scientific or for that matter reliable evidence for 'god done did it abiogenesis".
 
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