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Understanding the holy scriptures is impossible unless God gives you the interpretation

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
So -- back to Christ's birth, @Subduction Zone. I am going to start slowly because that's the way I learn as well. According to what I have learned, Jesus evidently was born at the time of September-October of the year 2 B.C.E., was baptized about the same time of the year in 29 C.E., and died on Friday, the 14th day of the month of Nisan (March-April), 33 C.E. I will follow up by giving the basis for these dates. We can get into the discussion about Herod and how it involves in this in a while.
Where do you get that from? It appears that you are going with a modified version of Matthew. Why are you ignoring Luke? If you go with that date just because it makes you feel better that is just fooling yourself at best. You are not fooling anyone else.
 

nick.f

New Member
27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”

28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”

29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Where do you get that from? It appears that you are going with a modified version of Matthew. Why are you ignoring Luke? If you go with that date just because it makes you feel better that is just fooling yourself at best. You are not fooling anyone else.
I'm getting it from the things I have learned. It allows me the opportunity to check out things, and there is more to back this up, but if you don't want to deal with the reasoning behind the dates, that's up to you.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I'm getting it from the things I have learned. It allows me the opportunity to check out things, and there is more to back this up, but if you don't want to deal with the reasoning behind the dates, that's up to you.
Then you have nothing. You need to find proper historical sources. Not lying apologists.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Yes I do believe I have something. And I may go on, but if you don't want to see the reasoning, that's up to you.
But that is not "reasoning". You are not following the evidence. I really do not care if the Nativity stories I are true or not. I will accept where the evidence takes us. You will not follow the evidence which always results in irrational and self contradicting answers.
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
Considering the high educational levels of other countries, it is a matter of national security to produce our own domestic educated population.

What is a better investment.
Pell grants, scholarships, fafsa - free money that doesn't guarantee they get through school -

Or, pay them to get through school...

I have a few fafsa kids who fail and fail again, don't show up to class, are there just for fafsa$$

There is more incentive to study and learn if the $$ is after the degree is earned.
We don't need any more creative dance decrees. If you look at the statistics, the money is in electricians, plumbers and welding. Many mechanics are about to all retire or quit working for the man, but the new cars are going to be financially unrepairable, so maybe a bicycle mechanic would be a better career path. The new graduates don't want to go into work even if they are paid a fair salary. Many have blue hair, piercings, tattoos, and vape, and as Progressives, can't stop complaining. Who wants to work in that environment. China has a high education level, yet the new graduates cannot find a job, and are being shipped to the countryside to work in the fields, at least those who have not gone the "lay down" route. That is the end for all social nationalist countries (communism in drag), including China, Venezuela, and Cuba. I don't quite remember, but it seems Cuban doctors make less than $100 a month. The woke Marxist Progressives are on the rode to "you will own nothing and be happy". (Mr. Schwab & his New World Order). The highly educated Indian graduates man phone lines. I don't remember the figures exactly, but it is only around 20% of graduates work in their educational field. Many wind up working in places like Starbucks or waiting tables.
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
The poor? Social Security is paid by people who are working, and the payment is proportionate to income up to a cap. And the well to do don't benefit from their Social Security checks at all.
Yet you put your social security check in the bank and expect it to help you sleep at night. My point is to make sure you get introduced into enough reality that your sleep will not be as sound as you would hope. The rich do not pay on any income over $168,000, whereas the poor and middle class pay on everything they make. To say the "well to do" do not benefit from their social security checks at all, is not a true statement. Your subjective self-serving conscience (your god) is leading you down the road to "destruction". If your god is creating a lie, what is the end of the road going to be. Now if you want "understanding" from the "scripture", try following the message of Yeshua, to give all you own to the poor, and follow me, after first, keeping the Commandments. (Mt 19) If you can't do that, maybe that social security money means more than you think.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
you put your social security check in the bank and expect it to help you sleep at night.
Where do you come up with this stuff? I don't actually ever see or think about those dollars, and I only take them because the alternative is to let the American government keep them.

Assuming that my wife outlives me, she'll be the one deciding where those dollars go. I trust her to be a wise and compassionate steward of them.
My point is to make sure you get introduced into enough reality that your sleep will not be as sound as you would hope.
Your hope is to make me uncomfortable.

I understand. It must be galling for the faithful to see atheists like me going about life without a shred of guilt or self-loathing and not in the slightest bit worried about any form of eternal punishment. I have to admit if I were religious, I'd probably think to myself, how come I've got all this weight on my shoulders while these impious infidels are happy?
Your subjective self-serving conscience (your god) is leading you down the road to "destruction"
That's what you were told and what you have believed. I discovered otherwise a long time ago. I'd gladly share my secrets with you, but I don't offer unsolicited advice, and you wouldn't be interested.
if you want "understanding" from the "scripture", try following the message of Yeshua, to give all you own to the poor, and follow me, after first, keeping the Commandments. (Mt 19)
Why would I go to a so-called holy book for life advice? I'm content without it.

And why all the scare quotes? Why not more: try following the "message" of "Yeshua," to "give" all you "own" to the "poor," and "follow" me, after first, "keeping" the "Commandments"
 

idea

Question Everything
We don't need any more creative dance decrees. If you look at the statistics, the money is in electricians, plumbers and welding. Many mechanics are about to all retire or quit working for the man, but the new cars are going to be financially unrepairable, so maybe a bicycle mechanic would be a better career path. The new graduates don't want to go into work even if they are paid a fair salary. Many have blue hair, piercings, tattoos, and vape, and as Progressives, can't stop complaining. Who wants to work in that environment. China has a high education level, yet the new graduates cannot find a job, and are being shipped to the countryside to work in the fields, at least those who have not gone the "lay down" route. That is the end for all social nationalist countries (communism in drag), including China, Venezuela, and Cuba. I don't quite remember, but it seems Cuban doctors make less than $100 a month. The woke Marxist Progressives are on the rode to "you will own nothing and be happy". (Mr. Schwab & his New World Order). The highly educated Indian graduates man phone lines. I don't remember the figures exactly, but it is only around 20% of graduates work in their educational field. Many wind up working in places like Starbucks or waiting tables.

My oldest who is graduating this weekend accepted an offer in the field, is going on to graduate school while also working. They have a unique hair style, are lgbtq, quite liberal, turned down a higher paying job that was in a field that didn't match their morals.

Lots of IT jobs which don't really require a degree, free online certifications.

Don't like computers? Plenty of jobs in medical fields. From restaurants to hair salons, yard work to pet sitters - there's jobs out there.

"44.8% of Fortune 500 companies in 2023, equating to 224 companies, were founded by immigrants or their children"
 

idea

Question Everything
The purpose is often to understand our past. What is wrong with that?

Why study out-dated, inefficient, incorrect ways of doing things?

Like studying old medical practices. Would you prefer a doctor who spent their time with new books, cutting edge research, new data, new equipment? Or... an old fashioned witch doctor?

Would you prefer to live in a 200 year old house, or one with modern plumbing and electricity?

Limited time - best to study current research, current data, newest edition of textbooks.

Learn from history to not repeat it. Progress, growth, learning, making the world better. Good, better, best. - study the best. Time is better spent with current books, than old outdated scripts.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
But that is not "reasoning". You are not following the evidence. I really do not care if the Nativity stories I are true or not. I will accept where the evidence takes us. You will not follow the evidence which always results in irrational and self contradicting answers.
So what does the evidence show about the traditional day of Jesus birth, as celebrated by many, namely December 25th.
 

Elihoenai

Well-Known Member
I think you misunderstand the atheist's position. He's not asking you for evidence for gods. He knows you don't have it. How? Because if convincing evidence existed, he'd know about it without your help and be a theist. He's just telling you that without that evidence, he doesn't believe in gods.
Have you considered the possibility that you didn't practice the Right Theology to be Truly Convicted of Elohim/God?










As far as we call tell, nature is all that exists.
Mother Nature, as they say, is From the Womb and because of this it's the Hardest Road Less Travelled to conceive of anything different.











The skeptic has no reason to believe that any such thing exists.

Furthermore, the idea of a realm that is causally connected to nature but undetectable from within it is incoherent (internally self-contradictory).
That's what I've been saying. The Supernatural is beyond the Realm of Science and Logic. Science and Logic is for the Natural Realm that I use in My Applied Science work. Faith has Nothing to do with Science and Logic.










Let's stipulate to that being the case. Still, what's the incentive to devote that energy toward achieving that goal? You're talking about throwing away all that one values to pursue something that has no apparent value even if it's a real thing.
Throwing away Ingrained Cherished Values is the most difficult thing a person can do. You won't know the Value or Not of a thing until you attain it. That's why they call it Faith.










I find biblical morals lacking. Scripture depicts the god of Abraham as immoral by humanist standards.
That's because Naturally you have a Natural Interpretation of the Bible.











Is this one of the rewards of following in your path? I'd probably be dead by now without my blood pressure and cholesterol medications, which I have taken for about 40 years now. My grandfather died of a heart attack before age 60, and I'm close to 70.

Of course, a drug is any chemical that affects physiology. Some exclude food and water from that list, but that's arbitrary. Too much or too little water can be lethal. Also, oxygen meets that definition of a drug and is prescribed therapeutically.
In Natural World the Natural Man Depends and Requires Pharmaceutical Drugs to Survive and/or Thrive.


When I say Pharmaceutical Drugs or Recreational Drugs and mean the Official Definition of what a Drug is and not your personal definition:


Drug

"A drug is any chemical substance that when consumed causes a change in an organism's physiology, including its psychology, if applicable.[1][2][vague] Drugs are typically distinguished from food and other substances that provide nutritional support. Consumption of drugs can be via inhalation, injection, smoking, ingestion, absorption via a patch on the skin, suppository, or dissolution under the tongue...."



"...Recreational drug use

Recreational drug use is the use of a drug (legal, controlled, or illegal) with the primary intention of altering the state of consciousness through alteration of the central nervous system in order to create positive emotions and feelings. The hallucinogen LSD is a psychoactive drug commonly used as a recreational drug.[35]

Ketamine is a drug used for anesthesia, and is also used as a recreational drug, both in powder and liquid form, for its hallucinogenic and dissociative effects.[36]

Some national laws prohibit the use of different recreational drugs; medicinal drugs that have the potential for recreational use are often heavily regulated. However, there are many recreational drugs that are legal in many jurisdictions and widely culturally accepted. Cannabis is the most commonly consumed controlled recreational drug in the world (as of 2012).[37] Its use in many countries is illegal but is legally used in several countries usually with the proviso that it can only be used for personal use. It can be used in the leaf form of marijuana (grass), or in the resin form of hashish. Marijuana is a more mild form of cannabis than hashish.

There may be an age restriction on the consumption and purchase of legal recreational drugs. Some recreational drugs that are legal and accepted in many places include alcohol, tobacco, betel nut, and caffeine products, and in some areas of the world the legal use of drugs such as khat is common.[38]

There are a number of legal intoxicants commonly called legal highs that are used recreationally. The most widely used of these is alcohol...."





Water and Oxygen are not Drugs when received normally.
 
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Elihoenai

Well-Known Member
Supernatural is not Spiritual. How does it help anyone if a man can walk on water? What purpose does it serve for humanity?
Yes Indeed, Supernatural is Spiritual. Why do you think Yeshua/Jesus Walked on Water and Controlled the Wind? These things are only for the Disciples. The Real Yeshua/Jesus Destroys what you call Humanity.


supernatural

adjective

1 of, relating to, or being above or beyond what is natural; unexplainable by natural law or phenomena; abnormal.
2 of, pertaining to, characteristic of, or attributed to God or a deity.








True Religion is transcendent because it comes from God, but the supernatural is not True Religion. True Religion has a useful purpose in this world to help humans get closer to God and serve their fellow humans and it also bestows eternal life.

“The greatest bestowal of God in the world of humanity is religion; for assuredly the divine teachings of religion are above all other sources of instruction and development to man. Religion confers upon man eternal life and guides his footsteps in the world of morality. It opens the doors of unending happiness and bestows everlasting honor upon the human kingdom. It has been the basis of all civilization and progress in the history of mankind.......

But when we speak of religion we mean the essential foundation or reality of religion, not the dogmas and blind imitations which have gradually encrusted it and which are the cause of the decline and effacement of a nation. These are inevitably destructive and a menace and hindrance to a nation’s life,—even as it is recorded in the Torah and confirmed in history that when the Jews became fettered by empty forms and imitations the wrath of God became manifest...” Bahá’í World Faith, pp. 270, 272
Therefore, your Bahai Faith Cherishes and Maintains what you call Human Nature. Maintaining and Cherishing Human Nature is exactly what Roman Catholicism does. Your Religion is no different from Roman Catholicism Being Left-Hand Path Religion.
 

Elihoenai

Well-Known Member
No, that is not true. God does not require that you give up the Flesh for the Spirit to become United with God.
Nobody can ever be 'United with God' since God will ever remain in His own High Place. and God has no partners.

"And now concerning thy reference to the existence of two Gods. Beware, beware, lest thou be led to join partners with the Lord, thy God. He is, and hath from everlasting been, one and alone, without peer or equal, eternal in the past, eternal in the future, detached from all things, ever-abiding, unchangeable, and self-subsisting. He hath assigned no associate unto Himself in His Kingdom, no counsellor to counsel Him, none to compare unto Him, none to rival His glory. To this every atom of the universe beareth witness, and beyond it the inmates of the realms on high, they that occupy the most exalted seats, and whose names are remembered before the Throne of Glory."
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 192
You are practising Left-Hand Path Religion.






I had no idea where this discussion was leading. I do not believe that anyone can become Jesus. The Purpose of Discipleship is not to Become Jesus. All we can do is try to become more like Jesus, and the way to do that is to love God and others more than self. You haven't proven that you are superior to anyone else by giving up the things of the flesh.
This is what they Believe in Christendom. Christian Gnostics are Heretics in the eyes of the Roman Catholic Church.











So you believe you are among the Elect just because you have relinquished the things of the flesh.
You can always cherry pick verses to try to support your position but the Bible does not support your position.

You are not 'better' than anyone else because you have chosen to relinquish the things of the flesh.
Jesus called upon us to be righteous, which requires going out into the world and helping those in need.

Matthew 25:41-46 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
You help those in Need by the telling the Truth. I told you the Truth that I heard from Elohim/God and you can choose to Accept or Reject it.









Some people are lucky to be in good health and some of that is because of their lifestyle, but even people with a healthy lifestyle fall ill, especially as they age. That is a proven fact. Drugs are often necessary to keep people alive. My mother lived to age 93 only because she was on a drug regime for her heart that kept her alive.
Everybody including yourself are Sick. You are a Sinner like everybody else. Sin is what makes people Sick and Die. Sin is Sickness.












I do not believe that there is an external being called Satan. I believe that the Satanic forces exist withing ourselves.
It is the battle within ourselves, between good and evil, between spiritual and natural.

“The reality underlying this question is that the evil spirit, Satan or whatever is interpreted as evil, refers to the lower nature in man. This baser nature is symbolized in various ways. In man there are two expressions, one is the expression of nature, the other the expression of the spiritual realm…. God has never created an evil spirit; all such ideas and nomenclature are symbols expressing the mere human or earthly nature of man. It is an essential condition of the soil of earth that thorns, weeds and fruitless trees may grow from it. Relatively speaking, this is evil; it is simply the lower state and baser product of nature.”
Abdu’l-Baha, Promulgation of Universal Peace, pp. 294–295
Satan/Devil is Internal and External. For example, if there is a One Pure Virgin Woman in a City with thousands of Sexually Perverted Men, those Sexually Perverted Men will make Sustained Devoted Satanic Efforts to Evilly Corrupt the One Pure Virgin in the City. These Satanic Efforts are External to the One Pure Virgin Woman and also Internally she Must Resist the Natural Temptation Within herself. If there is no Deterrent Force, those Sexually Perverted Men would Rape the One Pure Virgin. Humanity is Satanism. Everybody is born Evil Children of Devil/Satan From the Womb.









I could not agree with you more.

“Say: Doth it beseem a man while claiming to be a follower of his Lord, the All-Merciful, he should yet in his heart do the very deeds of the Evil One? Nay, it ill beseemeth him, and to this He Who is the Beauty of the All-Glorious will bear Me witness. Would that ye could comprehend it!

Cleanse from your hearts the love of worldly things, from your tongues every remembrance except His remembrance, from your entire being whatsoever may deter you from beholding His face, or may tempt you to follow the promptings of your evil and corrupt inclinations. Let God be your fear, O people, and be ye of them that tread the path of righteousness.

Say: Should your conduct, O people, contradict your professions, how think ye, then, to be able to distinguish yourselves from them who, though professing their faith in the Lord their God, have, as soon as He came unto them in the cloud of holiness, 276 refused to acknowledge Him, and repudiated His truth? Disencumber yourselves of all attachment to this world and the vanities thereof. Beware that ye approach them not, inasmuch as they prompt you to walk after your own lusts and covetous desires, and hinder you from entering the straight and glorious Path.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 275-276
James 4:4

4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.


You cannot Relinquish the things of the World by Embracing what you call Humanity. Your making yourself an Enemy of Elohim/God and a Friend of the World by taking the Side of Humanity.

What you call Humanity is in a Total War Against Elohim/God From the Womb. Until you Understand this everything will be Confusing.










I do not believe in Satan and I do not believe God is any part evil. Only man can be evil, and man is evil because he breaks the Laws of God.

“God hath in that Book, and by His behest, decreed as lawful whatsoever He hath pleased to decree, and hath, through the power of His sovereign might, forbidden whatsoever He elected to forbid. To this testifieth the text of that Book. Will ye not bear witness? Men, however, have wittingly broken His law. Is such a behavior to be attributed to God, or to their proper selves? Be fair in your judgment. Every good thing is of God, and every evil thing is from yourselves. Will ye not comprehend? This same truth hath been revealed in all the Scriptures, if ye be of them that understand.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 149-150
Job 19:26

26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

Exodus 32:14

14 And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

Deuteronomy 7:15

15 And the Lord will take away from thee all sickness, and will put none of the evil diseases of Egypt, which thou knowest, upon thee; but will lay them upon all them that hate thee.




Man/Woman is Elohim/God in the Flesh. Elohim/God is Omni. Elohim/God is Unlimited. You are Seeing a little "g" god in a Limited Way like they do in Christendom. Satan/Devil is Elohim's/God's Evil Side to Punish Evildoers and Try the Saints.


Omnipotence

Omnipotence is the quality of having unlimited power. Monotheistic religions generally attribute omnipotence only to the deity of their faith. In the monotheistic religious philosophy of Abrahamic religions, omnipotence is often listed as one of God's characteristics, along with omniscience, omnipresence, and omnibenevolence. The presence of all these properties in a single entity has given rise to considerable theological debate, prominently including the problem of evil, the question of why such a deity would permit the existence of evil. It is accepted in philosophy and science that omnipotence can never be effectively understood.

 
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It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
what does the evidence show about the traditional day of Jesus birth, as celebrated by many, namely December 25th.
It was likely patterned after other gods who died for three days and then were resurrected in imitation of the dying sun during winter solstice sitting still for three days before reversing direction and heading north again. It is at this time that sunrises are as southeastern as possible, and daylight is shortest in the northern hemisphere.

List Of Gods That Died And Resurrected After 3 Days - Education - Nigeria
Have you considered the possibility that you didn't practice the Right Theology to be Truly Convicted of Elohim/God?
One uses evidence to decide what is true about the world. If you use the words in the book as your guide, and the book was not generated empirically but rather is a collection of myths and uncorroborated claims, one ends up believing by faith and acquiring false or unfalsifiable ideas. This is not a path to truth.
The Supernatural is beyond the Realm of Science and Logic.
Ignoring reason is not transcending it. The supernatural transcends reason just like a thief transcends the law.
You won't know the Value or Not of a thing until you attain it. That's why they call it Faith.
You just described empiricism, which is centered about experience.
In Natural World the Natural Man Depends and Requires Pharmaceutical Drugs to Survive and/or Thrive.
No, as with much of scientific progress, man benefits from many of these pharmaceutical agents, which can make lives longer, more functional, and more comfortable. One doesn't need to benefit from pharmaceuticals or any other scientific achievement if he prefers to live without them.
When I say Pharmaceutical Drugs or Recreational Drugs and mean of the Official Definition of what a Drug is and not your personal definition:

Drug "A drug is any chemical substance that when consumed causes a change in an organism's physiology, including its psychology, if applicable.[1][2][vague] Drugs are typically distinguished from food and other substances that provide nutritional support. Consumption of drugs can be via inhalation, injection, smoking, ingestion, absorption via a patch on the skin, suppository, or dissolution under the tongue...."
But they are the same definition. My words again: "Of course, a drug is any chemical that affects physiology. Some exclude food and water from that list, but that's arbitrary. Too much or too little water can be lethal. Also, oxygen meets that definition of a drug and is prescribed therapeutically."

Do you take supplemental vitamins? Are there foods you eat for their nutritional or other health benefit? Do you take herbals or so-called alternative medicines? These all are or contain drugs as defined above.
Water and Oxygen are not Drugs when taken normally.
Why did you add 'when taken normally'? The route of administration doesn't make a substance sometimes a drug and sometimes not.

Dehydration-Dehydration - Diagnosis & treatment - Mayo Clinic
Dextrose 5% in Water (D5W) Intravenous - Drugs.com - this is the treatment for dehydration (given intravenously; the order for it looks like this D5W @ 60 cc/hr)


Supplemental Oxygen Therapy: Types, Benefits & Complications - prescription: 02 @ 2L/m per NC (nasal cannula)
Everybody including yourself are Sick. You are a Sinner like everybody else. Sin is what makes people Sick and Die.
That's about as dour and misanthropic a worldview as I have seen. You wanted to give me advice about where to find the answers you found, but they're unappealing. I don't want to live under that cloud with you.

My worldview is positive and constructive. Humanism starts at the other end, with the human potential for nobility and excellence, and seeks ways to promote and develop that through education and social and economic opportunity.
 
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2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
Don't like computers? Plenty of jobs in medical fields. From restaurants to hair salons, yard work to pet sitters - there's jobs out there.
One of the big retailers is laying of 16,000 pharmacists, and letting AI take over their jobs. Lawyers and doctors are next on the list. Dog walking may be the only job left, and Wendy's and McDonalds are trying to replace workers with AI robots. When people get so desperate that they have to eat their dogs, then dog walkers will be walking the streets alone. Artificial Intelligence (AI) in Pharmacy: An Overview of Innovations I suggest that one gets a couple of chickens and start raising their own food. Oh yeah, make sure your property is free and clear, and you live in a low tax county, otherwise someone else will be eating from your garden.
 

2ndpillar

Well-Known Member
"44.8% of Fortune 500 companies in 2023, equating to 224 companies, were founded by immigrants or their children"
Those were legal immigrants. Most all companies are chaired by descendants of immigrants. You will find very few American Indian CEOs unless you are in the Casino business. 3 of the top CEOs of the top U.S. companies had no college degrees.
 
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