Not in my experience on this forum. In general, atheists and pagans are more rational and respectful than most Christians I've interacted with on RF. I've been on this forum for two and a half years, and I've rarely had an atheist or pagan resort to calling me disparaging names or posting false accusations against me. My experiences on RF mirror my experiences with atheists, pagans, and Christians in real life as well. Based on my experiences on RF and in real life, I believe that both atheists and pagans I either know or have encountered online are far more Christian than the vast majority of the Christians I either know or have encountered online. I would say that in general, it's the atheists and pagans who are the ones who genuinely embody the primary moral teachings and virtues of Christianity, such as love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control (Galatians 5:22–23), whereas the vast majority of Christians I've met are the polar opposite (Galatians 5:19–21). I've said it before, and I'll say it again: some of the most obnoxious and prejudicial people I've ever met are Christians, and the majority of them are either evangelical conservatives or Jehovah's Witnesses.
And, to be quite honest with you, the more I interact with these Christians, the more determined I am to stay away from Christianity. In my opinion, they are very good at convincing people to totally reject Christianity. Since I became a Wiccan a couple of years ago, no Wiccans or other pagans I've met have ever treated me unfairly. I've rarely had a problem with atheists, either. I can't say the same about the majority of Christians I've met, especially here on RF.
Finally, I'd like to say that if I meet a kind and friendly Christian, then I consider them to be the exception, not the rule.
I've addressed this issue before in other threads:
I am not saying that I haven't encountered any rude Christians on this forum, only not many lately. There was one but that person seems to have left.
Although this is not true for all Christians, the rudeness usually starts as soon as they find out that I am a Baha'i, not a Christian, especially if I tell them I believe that Baha'u'llah was the return of Christ, or if I say that the same Jesus is never coming back to earth, or if I say that I don't believe that Jesus is the only way to God. As long as I steer clear of these subjects I am usually okay, since Baha'i beliefs do have a lot in common with some Christian belief, just not the Christian doctrines.
If you are getting on the bad side of Christians it might be because you criticize Christianity since some people can't tolerate criticism of their religious beliefs. I don't enjoy criticism of my beliefs, but since I am certain of my beliefs it is like water off a duck's back when Christians say that Baha'u'llah a false prophet or a fraud.
If I am insulted by an atheist it is usually when they call me homophobic because of the Baha'i Law that states that marriage is only allowed between a man and a woman. I am not homophobic just because that law exists, I like homosexuals as well as anyone else, but there is no way I can convince these atheists of that since they don't understand the definition of homophobia.
If you are getting on the bad since of Christians it might be because you criticize Christianity since some people can't tolerate criticism of their religious beliefs. I don't enjoy criticism of my beliefs, but since I am certain of my beliefs it is like water off a duck's back when Christians say that Baha'u'llah a false prophet or a fraud.
Yes, I criticize Christianity because of my negative experiences with it, just as other members do. I do participate in religious debates that involve it. I was a devout Christian for thirty years, as well as a street preacher and evangelism team leader. I think that this gives me an advantage in debating Christianity because I'm quite knowledgeable about its teachings and am well-versed in the Bible. Besides, in a religious debate forum, Christians and other theists should expect to have their personal beliefs challenged. If they can't handle the harsh criticism and opposition, then perhaps they shouldn't participate in these forums. If a debate becomes too heated for me, then I'll stop participating in the thread or I'll take a break from the forum for a while. Despite my criticism of Christianity, my viewpoint towards Christians has always been to live and let live, unless, of course, they try to impose their beliefs on me by unsolicited preaching and proselytizing or accuse me of sinning against their God and tell me I'm going to hell. I especially don't like being accused of conversing with demons when I interact with spirits. Most of the Christians I've met don't respect other people's beliefs but expect others to respect theirs.
To be honest, I couldn't care less what religion other people practice as long as they don't preach and proselytize and threaten me with damnation in hell if I don't convert. I don't expect or demand that others accept my spirituality, nor do I try to convert anyone by forcing it down their throat. I don't try to convert anyone by reciting the Wiccan Rede, woo them by telling them that my gods love them and want to save them, guilt-trip them by telling them that they've transgressed against my gods, which has angered them, and threaten them with damnation in hell if they don't convert. In fact, I believe that other people should be free to practice whatever religion they want, but I will confront them if they continue to try to preach, proselytize, and attempt to convert me after I've told them I'm not interested or when they falsely accuse me. I will also stand up and confront any theist if it becomes apparent to me that their religious beliefs are causing harm to others, such as an abusive man beating his wife because she doesn't submit to him like the Bible instructs wives to do and/or abusing his children because they dare question his purported authority as the spiritual leader of the home, as the Bible also teaches.
This is the reason why I take what I call the Universalist perspective. If the 'Source' some call Gods exists the reality of God is universal beyond any human interpretation. The human view and belief in the 'Source' evolves.
The more dogmatic and 'set in doctrine' a religion or belief system is the less likely it is true even relatively true.
Yes, I criticize Christianity because of my negative experiences with it, just as other members do. I do participate in religious debates that involve it. I was a devout Christian for thirty years, as well as a street preacher and evangelism team leader. I think that this gives me an advantage in debating Christianity because I'm quite knowledgeable about its teachings and am well-versed in the Bible. Besides, in a religious debate forum, Christians and other theists should expect to have their personal beliefs challenged. If they can't handle the harsh criticism and opposition, then perhaps they shouldn't participate in these forums. If a debate becomes too heated for me, then I'll stop participating in the thread or I'll take a break from the forum for a while. Despite my criticism of Christianity, my viewpoint towards Christians has always been to live and let live, unless, of course, they try to impose their beliefs on me by unsolicited preaching and proselytizing or accuse me of sinning against their God and tell me I'm going to hell. I especially don't like being accused of conversing with demons when I interact with spirits. Most of the Christians I've met don't respect other people's beliefs but expect others to respect theirs.
To be honest, I couldn't care less what religion other people practice as long as they don't preach and proselytize and threaten me with damnation in hell if I don't convert. I don't expect or demand that others accept my spirituality, nor do I try to convert anyone by forcing it down their throat. I don't try to convert anyone by reciting the Wiccan Rede, woo them by telling them that my gods love them and want to save them, guilt-trip them by telling them that they've transgressed against my gods, which has angered them, and threaten them with damnation in hell if they don't convert. In fact, I believe that other people should be free to practice whatever religion they want, but I will confront them if they continue to try to preach, proselytize, and attempt to convert me after I've told them I'm not interested or when they falsely accuse me. I will also stand up and confront any theist if it becomes apparent to me that their religious beliefs are causing harm to others, such as an abusive man beating his wife because she doesn't submit to him like the Bible instructs wives to do and/or abusing his children because they dare question his purported authority as the spiritual leader of the home, as the Bible also teaches.
My experiences with Christians and Muslims because of being a Baha'i have been difficult over time in my everyday life. On the internet the problem with Fundamentalist Christians is somewhat amplified. I consider the aggressive negative view of atheists and LGBT community more problematic.
Understanding the holy scriptures is impossible unless God gives you the interpretation
I wanted to address the title of the thread. For "God to give someone the one "true" interpretation" would indicate authority of the first order, or that of a Messiah like authority that is absolute and true. Among fallible humans in general this terribly problematic considering the witness of the history of those that claim such an interpretation directly from God.
As far as the problematic conflicting claims over the millenia: "What would be possible?"
What conflicting interpretations are you talking about...the bible doeent conflict with itself.
Look if you can't be bothered learning how to cross reference, your objective is such that it's pointless explaining the fundamentals of cross referencing to you.
Anyone who has done any high school study (as I imagine you have done) knows exactly how to do this...its not difficult.
That makes sense. But then that could be because I looked for God, even prayed, but didn't know Him until I was ready to know Him. He found me and I found Him. But he let me look for a while. Deuteronomy 4:29 -
"But if from there you seek the LORD your God, you will find him if you seek him with all your heart and with all your soul."
That makes sense. But then that could be because I looked for God, even prayed, but didn't know Him until I was ready to know Him. He found me and I found Him. But he let me look for a while. Deuteronomy 4:29 -
"But if from there you seek the LORD your God, you will find him if you seek him with all your heart and with all your soul."
The prophet Jeremiah expands on the text you quoted in Deuteronomy...
When we read the text below, it appears to be talking specifically about Israelite captivity. However, this is a powerful type/antitype prophecy that also talks of salvation of spiritual Israel (modern Christians)...of God rescuing us from the carnal desires of our hearts as a result of temptation from the devil.
◄ Jeremiah 29 ►
"10I will attend to you and confirm My promise to restore you to this place. 11For I know the plans I have for you, declares the LORD, plans to prosper you and not to harm you, to give you a future and a hope. 12Then you will call upon Me and come and pray to Me, and I will listen to you. 13You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart. 14I will be found by you, declares the LORD, and I will restore you from captivityc and gather you from all the nations and places to which I have banished you, declares the LORD. I will restore you to the place from which I sent you into exile.”
The bible also tells us in the new covenant that He will write His laws on our Hearts and in our minds...
Jeremiah 31.33
This is the covenant I will make with the people of Israel after that time,” declares the LORD. “I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.
It has been the subject of many threads. the Bible is loaded with contradictions within, and the historical, archaeological, and the text is mostly without provenance of authorship, and history. The Pentateuch was compiled hundreds of years after the events, and the stories are mostly based on mythology.
Look if you can't be bothered learning how to cross reference, your objective is such that it's pointless explaining the fundamentals of cross referencing to you.
The many different churches that give different interpretations and some like the Roman Church (RCC} and what you believe claim to believe the only true interpretation, Some people interpret God as a Trinity and some do not.
He's one of many I've seen, but still, they're the minority. One of the great benefits of participating in this forum is the chance to witness a large cross-section of people posting mostly anonymously over protracted periods of time, which gives us a pretty good picture of how their various religions or lack of religion affect them.
He's telling you that you're not qualified to interpret scripture if you disagree with him. He wrote, "It means that carnal man, sinful man who does not seek God, cannot know." And who's the carnal, sinful man? Anybody who doesn't interpret scripture as he does.
Another poster on this thread wrote, "Your spiritual sight needs servicing and new glasses" and "Correct spiritual discernment. Many people misunderstand the Bible because they lack this ability" He's also attempting to disqualify a contrary opinion by telling another they're not qualified like he is to understand the meaning of those words.
Many zealous believers attempt to disqualify the opinions of others, especially of critics of scripture, with a large variety of tropes that I have been collecting for years. Here are a selection of them:
[6] Scripture is only transparent to biblical scholars
[7] You are not filled with the Holy Spirit
[10] You were obviously never a "true christian"
[11] You don't have enough faith. You have to believe to understand.
[12] You can't criticize the bible because you don't believe or understand it.
[16] You are not TRULY with truth and sincerity seeking God.
[17] You have to know how to translate Hebrew and Greek
[20] Sorry, but attending a church for a few years doesn't make you any sort of Biblical expert.
[22] You have to be familiar with the technical terminologies in the bible before you can comprehend it.
[24] In any other field, like medicine, engineering, technology, electronics, software, computer, unless you have qualifications and experience, you are not allowed to open you mouth.
[25] You have no reference in the knowledge of God to know our experience in Christ Jesus. The Word has to be embedded in one's heart, and that can come from God only.
[28] You're only making a fool out of yourself trying to argue over something that you are not Blessed to understand.
[31] You are not bright or educated enough to spew against Bible
[34] You and others like you can't understand because you're not permitted to unless/until you repent and confess Christ as LORD.
[35] The power of the gospel is designed to frustrate the wisdom of the wise.
[36] It's so damn cute when atheists reach for their Bible to make their point. I love it!
[38] It requires theological understanding. You don't have that. I do.
[41] You get your biblical passages from Atheist web sites.
[42] A copy/paste from Biblehub does not make one a biblical expert.
[43] Don't bother quoting Scripture to me, atheist. You don't even know what you're doing.
[44] Your lack of belief in God coupled with your lack of experience with God means you are not qualified to comment on God.
[47] Out of context arguments are presented by narrow minds that refuse to take in the bigger perspectives and the greater all encompassing truths.
[50] You don't know what Jesus was talking about. Typical atheist.
[53] You have no biblical expertise, your word on the Bible is strictly a layman's opinion.
[55] You are a heretic with little if any understanding of Scripture. If you did study the Bible it was in a Laurel and Hardy College in Tijuana
[67] the typical oblivious understanding of an atheist, in their incessant attempt to try and undermine the wisdom of the Bible.
The Bible contains many concepts that are spiritual in nature, i.e., they can only be understood spiritually ... The Bible is spiritual literature ... the Holy Spirit can still communicate Biblical truths to those who "have an ear to hear"
And how do you know that you have this gift? Because you say so. You might think your god has told you so.
All of this reference to spirituality is a reference to nothing. The terms spiritual discernment and spiritual truth appear to refer to nothing. If that were incorrect, you could share examples of the truths you've discerned and how you know they're true, but you can't. You simply pronounce yourself as having a special gift but can't defend the claim. You cannot produce anything that demonstrates that the claim is about more than nothing.
Not in my experience on this forum. In general, atheists and pagans are more rational and respectful than most Christians I've interacted with on RF. I've been on this forum for two and a half years, and I've rarely had an atheist or pagan resort to calling me disparaging names or posting false accusations against me. My experiences on RF mirror my experiences with atheists, pagans, and Christians in real life as well. Based on my experiences on RF and in real life, I believe that both atheists and pagans I either know or have encountered online are far more Christian than the vast majority of the Christians I either know or have encountered online. I would say that in general, it is the atheists and pagans who are the ones who genuinely embody the primary moral teachings and virtues of Christianity, such as love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control (Galatians 5:22–23), whereas the vast majority of Christians I've met are the polar opposite (Galatians 5:19–21). And, to be quite honest with you, the more I interact with these Christians, the more determined I am to stay away from Christianity. In my opinion, they are very good at convincing people to utterly reject Christianity. Since I became a Wiccan, no Wiccans or other pagans I've met have ever treated me unfairly. I've rarely had a problem with atheists, either.
He's one of many I've seen, but still, they're the minority. One of the great benefits of participating in this forum is the chance to witness a large cross-section of people posting mostly anonymously over protracted periods of time, which gives us a pretty good picture of how their various religions or lack of religion affect them.
He's telling you that you're not qualified to interpret scripture if you disagree with him. He wrote, "It means that carnal man, sinful man who does not seek God, cannot know." And who's the carnal, sinful man? Anybody who doesn't interpret scripture as he does.
Another poster on this thread wrote, "Your spiritual sight needs servicing and new glasses" and "Correct spiritual discernment. Many people misunderstand the Bible because they lack this ability" He's also attempting to disqualify a contrary opinion by telling another they're not qualified like he is to understand the meaning of those words.
Many zealous believers attempt to disqualify the opinions of others, especially of critics of scripture, with a large variety of tropes that I have been collecting for years. Here are a selection of them:
[6] Scripture is only transparent to biblical scholars
[7] You are not filled with the Holy Spirit
[10] You were obviously never a "true christian"
[11] You don't have enough faith. You have to believe to understand.
[12] You can't criticize the bible because you don't believe or understand it.
[16] You are not TRULY with truth and sincerity seeking God.
[17] You have to know how to translate Hebrew and Greek
[20] Sorry, but attending a church for a few years doesn't make you any sort of Biblical expert.
[22] You have to be familiar with the technical terminologies in the bible before you can comprehend it.
[24] In any other field, like medicine, engineering, technology, electronics, software, computer, unless you have qualifications and experience, you are not allowed to open you mouth.
[25] You have no reference in the knowledge of God to know our experience in Christ Jesus. The Word has to be embedded in one's heart, and that can come from God only.
[28] You're only making a fool out of yourself trying to argue over something that you are not Blessed to understand.
[31] You are not bright or educated enough to spew against Bible
[34] You and others like you can't understand because you're not permitted to unless/until you repent and confess Christ as LORD.
[35] The power of the gospel is designed to frustrate the wisdom of the wise.
[36] It's so damn cute when atheists reach for their Bible to make their point. I love it!
[38] It requires theological understanding. You don't have that. I do.
[41] You get your biblical passages from Atheist web sites.
[42] A copy/paste from Biblehub does not make one a biblical expert.
[43] Don't bother quoting Scripture to me, atheist. You don't even know what you're doing.
[44] Your lack of belief in God coupled with your lack of experience with God means you are not qualified to comment on God.
[47] Out of context arguments are presented by narrow minds that refuse to take in the bigger perspectives and the greater all encompassing truths.
[50] You don't know what Jesus was talking about. Typical atheist.
[53] You have no biblical expertise, your word on the Bible is strictly a layman's opinion.
[55] You are a heretic with little if any understanding of Scripture. If you did study the Bible it was in a Laurel and Hardy College in Tijuana
[67] the typical oblivious understanding of an atheist, in their incessant attempt to try and undermine the wisdom of the Bible.
Yet you tell others that you understand the words but they don't because you have this special insight that you call spiritual discernment.
Let me guess. That's you again.
And how do you know that you have this gift? Because you say so. You might think your god has told you so.
All of this reference to spirituality is a reference to nothing. The terms spiritual discernment and spiritual truth appear to refer to nothing. If that were incorrect, you could share examples of the truths you've discerned and how you know they're true, but you can't. You simply pronounce yourself as having a special gift but can't defend the claim. You cannot produce anything that demonstrates that the claim is about more than nothing.
Anyone who says that the reference to spirituality is a reference to nothing is lost. It is a wonderful gift from God that you clearly reject. Spiritual discernment and spiritual truth are everything.
I don't have to defend my claim of having a spiritual gift to you. Why should I waste my time doing that?
It is unfortunately too common for believers of one 'faith' to seriously question the rational judgement of others who do not believe as they do. Every different religion or belief system justifies their own belief based on what they believe.
I do not believe in the Wiccan, because it is another ancient worldview based on a limited perspective. I prefer a Universalist perspective that considers the different religions and belief systems in the culture and time they originate, as the progressive spiritual evolution of humanity.
Once you became a rude, arrogant, and judgmental Christian, you lost the ability to form a relevant opinion about others who hold a different belief than you. You have become nothing more than a resounding gong and a clanging cymbal because of your blatantly rude, arrogant, and judgmental demeanor.
If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing. 4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. 8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. 13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
Once you became a rude, arrogant, and judgmental Christian, you lost the ability to form a relevant opinion about others who hold a different belief than you. You have become nothing more than a resounding gong and a clanging cymbal because of your blatantly rude, arrogant, and judgmental demeanor.
If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing. 4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. 8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. 13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
I do not believe in the Wiccan, because it is another ancient worldview based on a limited perspective. I prefer a Universalist perspective that considers the different religions and belief systems in the culture and time they originate, as the progressive spiritual evolution of humanity.
The Wiccan Rede, the various deities, the respect for nature, and the openness of Wicca about death and the afterlife are the reasons I find it most appealing. I chose Wicca because it isn't a rigidly structured, patriarchal religion that arrogantly claims to be the only true religion in the world, that arrogantly claims that women must be submissive to their husbands, that views women as inferior to men and should not have spiritual authority over men, or that claims that it is the only religion in the world with the only way to a god or has the only correct answers to theological questions like how to worship a god, pray to a god, or live a moral life. I also like the fact that Wicca doesn't have a Bible, no rigid doctrines to follow, and no official doctrines about what the afterlife will be like. It isn't a religion that arrogantly claims to be the only one with the correct answers to what happens after death.
In fact, each Wiccan decides for themselves what they believe about death and the afterlife. There are a few differing viewpoints found within Wicca in regards to the afterlife, but there isn't an overseeing authority that instructs Wiccans to believe in any particular version of life after death. There are some similar conclusions that many may reach, such as reincarnation, but there is no specific teaching. Wicca is, in my opinion, a very inclusive religion, and I can honestly say that my experience as a Wiccan has been positive. I feel the same way about my beliefs as a druid. I believe that being a Wiccan and a Druid has been a very liberating and positive experience for me. It has without a doubt contributed to the significant improvement of my emotional well-being and mental health, which were severely harmed during the years I was a Christian and believed in the biblical God. I finally have inner peace in my life.
Having said all of this, I'd like to make it perfectly clear that I don't expect you to accept my spiritual beliefs or insist that you should. I would never try to proselytize you and force my beliefs down your throat. In my opinion, you can believe in any deity you like and practice whatever religion you want.
He's telling you that you're not qualified to interpret scripture if you disagree with him. He wrote, "It means that carnal man, sinful man who does not seek God, cannot know." And who's the carnal, sinful man? Anybody who doesn't interpret scripture as he does.
Yah. That's an example of a general way of "being right because of what you are, rather than what you say".
Like the ex wait person who, when I criticized the practice of tipping, said "Have you ever waited tables?" (The answer was "no" and the unstated conclusion was "so you have no right to an opinion").
Like the ex cop who, when I was quoting a case of police misbehavior, said "Have you ever been a police officer?" (Same answer, same conclusion.)
Like all the parents that ever responded to a difficult question from a child with "You'll understand that when you grow up".
A common factor is the refusal to respond to anything else said. In the first case she actually left the room.
It's silly really, as by extension I am not entitled to an opinion on anything unless I have intimate personal experience of it. It would mean that nobody could ever say murder is wrong.
