YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
How wrong is wrong? Is there a relative sense? And God goes along with history. For instance, the Bible was written a while back. And God allowed time for people to see and understand.
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Understanding the holy scriptures is impossible unless God gives you the interpretation
- Thread starter 74x12
- Start date
If the scriptures are written in a way that makes it IMPOSSIBLE to understand, why have them at all? Just give us the message personally in his own words. What's the worse that can happen if he did this?
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
The message has to reach the heart. One can read the Bible and comment on it, but not understand it.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
He doesn't respond to my posts anymore but I don't know which others he claimed to put on ignore to whom he still responds.
Or one can get the message from the source, understand it, and know what he is talking about when he comments on it. Which would you prefer?
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
? from the source? The prophet Daniel got some messages from the Source. So did John in the book of Revelation. and otherwise. Jesus said at
Matthew 24:14 -
"And the Good News about the Kingdom will be preached throughout the whole world, so that all nations will hear it; and then the end will come."
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
All the scripture is not IMPOSSIBLE to understand. Some scripture is easy to understand. For example:
John 17:4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
These verses mean that Jesus Christ finished His work in this world and He was not going to be in this world after He dies and goes to be with His Father in heaven. Yet, in spite of these verses, Christians believe that Jesus is going to return to earth to build a kingdom on earth, and they continue to wait for Him.
However, some scriptures are difficult to understand because they are spoken in figurative language (proverbs).
John 16:25
These things I have spoken to you in figurative language; but the time is coming when I will no longer speak to you in figurative language, but I will tell you plainly about the Father.
The meaning if this scripture is clear, although Christians don't know what it means. It means that when Christ returns He will no longer speak in proverbs; rather, He will speak clearly. Since Christ has returned, that promise was kept.
God has given His message in His own words, to His Messengers. God only speaks to His Messengers and then they reveal what God said to humanity.
I use the term prefer, because I accept the fallible human nature as unable to determine what is absolutely true over the many other claims in the subjective realms of religious beliefs. There are too many conflicting claims as what 'believers' claim as true, without any objective verifiable evidence to support the claims. I do not consider the ancient scripture as a reliable source to support the claim of any one belief over others, because it lacks provenance of origin of the text and authorship. I study all the scriptures of the world to understand the spiritual history of humanity,a nd to acquire the knowledge of the wisdom in the age they wrote in.
The issue of science is important to me, because it is a reliable objective source of knowledge that changes when new information becomes available. Ancient religions are not willing to adapt and change when new information is available. They are stuck in ancient paradigms.
My use of my beliefs in terms of preference is I am willing to change, like science, when new information becomes available.
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Well, yes I believe wisdom requires evidence, but intelligence is simply the human facility of the brain to understand our world. You need to get your use of English correct to communicate properly. There is no such thing as proof. Proof is better used to confirm math theorems. You cannot prove subjective religious claims. Her is another classic misuse of the English language.
As far as contradictions go in the text of the Pentateuch. The mythical stories of Creation and Noah's flood are totally in contradiction of what we can objectively determine concerning the geologic history of the earth as well as the actual history of humanity in the past ~300,000 years and more. Your only option is to simply reject science, for an ancient tribal mythology.
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The Bible does no remotely fit the known history of humanity, and the geologic history of the earth.
When posts give off a sense of absolutist arrogance, I'm not inclined to respond much anyway.
AdamjEdgar
Active Member
hang on a minute...didnt you make the claim the bible contradicts itself?
The bible disagreeing with the naturalistic interpretation of science is not a contradiction. It also ignores that point that the bibles historical record is largely proven to be correct. So when you say, we cannot prove religious views...well that's misleading because the historical aspect of Christianity can be proven with written records by writers outside of the bible and via archaeological evidence that we can physically see and touch. The only debatable part of Christainity is the God part. Given that the naturalistic view of science cannot explain the origins of the universe, or answer any of our epistemological questions, i would suggest that it hardly has a strong position with which to deny the Christian narrative, nor can it provide a better future option.
Again, at the end of the day, it comes down to the following:
If you are right and the Christian is wrong, both end up dead
If Christian is right and you are wrong, you end up dead and Christian lives forever!
So the Christian is the only one who wins actually.
and before you bring up what i think will be your response...i refer to you to Islam and the Quran. Did you know that the account of Moses is mentioned over 130 times in the Quran? It includes his birth, upbringing, exile from Egypt, and the Exodus! So two of the most prevalent religions in the world both claim that Moses really existed just as the bible says he did.
Now about those biblical contradictions we are going to discuss...what ones would you like to talk about?
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Ajax
Active Member
Sorry, I don't understand what you mean by "something happening".
AdamjEdgar
Active Member
Isnt your claim to YoursTrue, that the bible is full of "a miriad of contradictions"? As with Shunyadragon, what are they so we can discuss them specifically?
Ajax
Active Member
Good point, but does it really matter? According to theologians, God is timeless and can see simultaneously past, present and future, so no one can do anything different other than what God sees and knows.
That is why Paul wrote these...
Eph.1:4-5 "He hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will."
Rom.8:29-30 "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate.... Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."
2 Tim.1:9 "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began."
2 Thes 2:13 " But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God chose you from the beginning to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth."
Rom 9:11 "though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad, in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call."
Also,
Acts 13:48 "And as many as were ordained to eternal life, believed."
1 Peter 1:2 "...chosen and destined by God the Father and sanctified by the Spirit for obedience to Jesus Christ."
...and many other verses.
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He's here to preach, by which I mean he has something he wants you to hear but has no interest in what others have to say.
You're not interested in contrary opinions. You couldn't be any more clear about that when you put one voice after another on ignore after you read something from them that you don't like. But that's perfectly fine. You serve a useful purpose doing this.
In my estimation, the zealous Christian has already lost. You write as if living that life comes at no cost. One can see the ill effect too much religion can have here on this thread.
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I claimed contradiction and documented them.
Not necessarily, this is based on the assumptions of your belief, and does not address the contradictions I documented.
No, assertion made on your subjective assertions of belief, Nothe subject I addressed.
What is mentioned in the Quran faces the same problems as in the Bible but over 600 years later. The Quran is based on the Pentateuch also. The lack of provenance of text and authorship.
These are contradictions I will discuss first, and your failure to respond.
The Church Fathers believed in a literal Pentateuch without the scientific knowledge we have today.
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Sgt. Pepper
All you need is love.
Speaking as a former street preacher and evangelist, I must say that I think his preaching style is absolutely awful unless, of course, his primary goal for his unsolicited preaching and proselytizing is to drive people further away from God rather than draw them nearer. If that's the case, then he is right on target.
Agreed, but isn't that what all of the zealous religious types do? I've noted this frequently in my posting, most recently last week on this thread, as this search of my use of the word counterproductive demonstrates (the third of these five is another topic). They don't seem to care what effect they have on others. They don't mind that their behavior is just further confirmation that avoiding their path was a good choice. I include this to show you that I am not exaggerating about how frequent this is and how many times I've addressed believers about it:
I've also asked several about what motivates them, but none have answered. My leading hypothesis is that their martyring themselves. None have affirmed or denied this, which I take as tacit assent. Here's the "martyr" search: