Understanding the holy scriptures is impossible unless God gives you the interpretation

[Trailblazer]

I know you mean this as being funny, but I find this funny.

I did not mean this as being funny, I was dead serious.

 

[Kfox]

We have been over this before. There are so many logical problems with that proposal that I don't even know where to begin.

1. If an audible voice came from the sky, how would anyone know it was God?

Modern technology would confirm it is alien to Earth.

2. If that voice said "now I am going to clear up all the misinformation that you have received from the messengers via scriptures," who would believe that voice, aside from some atheists, who comprise only about 7% of the human population?

Perhaps people interested in the truth; even if it conflicts with what they’ve been told.

No, I was not joking.

I said: It is irrelevant that a God who can do anything could do that. God could also eradicate all of creation in one split second. Should God do that?

Apparently you did not understand what I was getting at so allow me to explain. Just because God is all-powerful so God has the power to do anything that does not mean that God should or would do everything that God has the power to do.

In other words, just because God has the power to do what you want God to do that is not a reason why God would or should do it.

No; the reason he should do it is because it would be far more effective than what he is claimed to be doing now.

1. You are assuming, facts not in evidence, that the messengers are flawed, sinful, and dishonest people with personal agendas.
2. You are assuming that God could use 'a better way' to communicate, but you do not know that.
3. God us not only all-powerful., God is also all-knowing, which means that God knows more than any human, since no human is all knowing. That means that God knows 'the best way' to communicate from all the available options.

The way that God communicated has worked because most people in the world believe in God because of a Messenger of God

84 percent of the world population has a faith.

Because most faiths have a religious Founder or what I call a Messenger that means most people believe in God because of a Messenger. We know that Christians and Muslims believe in a Messenger and they comprise 55% of the world population. It does not matter if you call them a Messenger; they are holy men who founded the religions, so they are intermediaries between God and man. Sure, there are a few believers who believe in God but not a Messenger but that is not the norm. The point is that with no Messengers or holy men very few people would believe in God.

Can we agree, of all the people of various religions claiming to be messengers of the true God, most of them lie?

You do not know that the messengers are dishonest, you only believe that.

In this new age everyone has been given a new message, through the Revelation of Baha'u'llah. It is not God's fault that most people have rejected the new messenger, and that is mostly because they are clinging to their older religious traditions.

Your religion is not the only religion that have people claiming to be messengers of God. What about all of those messengers promoting religions of fake Gods?

Speak for yourself and what would be credible to YOU. You have no idea what would be credible to other people.
The problems with that method are as follows:

1. God' voice cannot be confirmed by technology.
2. If speaking from the sky was a 'better way' for God to communicate God would have done so, since the all-knowing God knows the best way to communicate.

Messengers only have credibility with people who already believe what the messenger is telling them. An unknown messenger giving a message that conflicts what people already believe will find his message rejected.

 

[Trailblazer]

Modern technology would confirm it is alien to Earth.

But that is all that modern technology could confirm. If you want to believe that an alien is God, go for it, but I prefer not to.

Perhaps people interested in the truth; even if it conflicts with what they’ve been told.

How would people know that was the truth coming from the real God?
We have the same problem now on earth, people rejecting God's latest Messenger because what He revealed conflicts with what they’ve been told.

No; the reason he should do it is because it would be far more effective than what he is claimed to be doing now.

You cannot know it would be more effective since it never happened.
If it would be more effective why hasn't God already done it?

Can we agree, of all the people of various religions claiming to be messengers of the true God, most of them lie?

The messengers of God do not lie, but I can certainly agree that all the older religions, their scriptures and their beliefs, have been corrupted by man.

“This is the Day when the loved ones of God should keep their eyes directed towards His Manifestation, and fasten them upon whatsoever that Manifestation may be pleased to reveal. Certain traditions of bygone ages rest on no foundations whatever, while the notions entertained by past generations, and which they have recorded in their books, have, for the most part, been influenced by the desires of a corrupt inclination. Thou dost witness how most of the commentaries and interpretations of the words of God, now current amongst men, are devoid of truth. Their falsity hath, in some cases, been exposed when the intervening veils were rent asunder. They themselves have acknowledged their failure in apprehending the meaning of any of the words of God.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 171-172

That is one reason Baha'ullah came, to correct all that had been corrupted by man and renew and revitalize religion.

Your religion is not the only religion that have people claiming to be messengers of God. What about all of those messengers promoting religions of fake Gods?

Why would that matter? The existence of religions with fake Gods in no way negates the existence of a new religion revealed by the real God.
Our job is to determine which ones are true religions.

Messengers only have credibility with people who already believe what the messenger is telling them.

That is not true. I never believed in God or any messenger or any message before I became a Baha'i. I was a blank slate.

An unknown messenger giving a message that conflicts what people already believe will find his message rejected.

That is true, and that is why the message of Baha'u'llah has thus far been rejected by most people who hear it. Most people are religious so they already have a religion they believe is the truth and they are not willing to relinquish it. Only the sincerest of seekers will do that. They have to really want to know the truth, at any cost.

 

[Kfox]

But that is all that modern technology could confirm. If you want to believe that an alien is God, go for it, but I prefer not to.

The vast majority of people who believe in God believe God to be Alien to planet Earth. So an Alien speaking from the sky, or modern media is not that far of a leap

How would people know that was the truth coming from the real God?
We have the same problem now on earth, people rejecting God's latest Messenger because what He revealed conflicts with what they’ve been told.

I never said everybody would accept it, I’m saying a voice from the sky is more convincing than some random guy standing on a soap box claiming to be God’s messenger

You cannot know it would be more effective since it never happened.
If it would be more effective why hasn't God already done it?

God would have to be real in order to do it.

The messengers of God do not lie, but I can certainly agree that all the older religions, their scriptures and their beliefs, have been corrupted by man.

So you agree most people claiming to be messengers lie?

Why would that matter? The existence of religions with fake Gods in no way negates the existence of a new religion revealed by the real God.
Our job is to determine which ones are true religions.

With a voice from the sky, nobody would have a need to determine because all of the fake religions would be exposed as fake and only the true one religion will remain.

That is true, and that is why the message of Baha'u'llah has thus far been rejected by most people who hear it.

Well if Baha’u’llah spoke from the sky, far more people would accept him.

 

[shunyadragon]

If God gave his message in an audible voice from the sky, or from some of the media outlets, he could prove all the fake Gods false and himself real so everybody would know the real God. IMO had he done this in the first place, none of the other fake Gods would have ever been created.

IF God?!?!?!?!

I believe Billy Graham did this for him. Lay your hands on the TV and feel the vibes of the Holy Spirit.

 

[shunyadragon]

Because you can't correctly understand Scripture is no reason to condemn others who can. People of faith aren't the ones who are can't adjust to the modern world. Most of us are doing just fine. Why? Because, unlike yourself, we have "the peace that passes all understanding".

I do not condemn anyone, but Christian often do condemning those that interpret scripture differently and claim theirs id the only interpretation. I very seriously up front do not believe any fallible human is capable of that level of understanding The Bible.

I agree with you about Christian nationalist politics, which is clearly a false understanding of both Christianity and nationalism. That, however, has nothing to do with your lumping that philosophy with science. For the great majority of my life I was both a Christian and a scientist. You are clearly making general assumptions about people whom you have never met, which is clearly a form of bigotry.

OK, but this is dominante course of likely the majority Protestant Christianity in the USA that vote. They are voting for Christian Nationalism

Why not try to understand what Christianity really is instead of condemning the faith of many millions of people.

Your statement doe not make sense, because you do not know me. I have studied all the major religions for over 50 years, and my threads and posts on this forum for years reflect a deep knowledge in science philosophy and history.

I believe there is a lack of understanding, empathy and knowledge of atheists among Christians given the negative and often hostile view, What I justifiably serious question is the validity of the many conflicting interpretations of the ancient text without provenance making at times absolute claims and often rejecting science,

You question my posts concerning the happiest countries, and did not really respond to my points,

Actually the subject at hand is not my understanding of Christianity, but whether "Understanding the holy scriptures is impossible unless God gives you the interpretation

 

[Trailblazer]

The vast majority of people who believe in God believe God to be Alien to planet Earth. So an Alien speaking from the sky, or modern media is not that far of a leap

It would be a leap for most people since most people don 't believe God would ever speak from the sky, since they believe that messengers of God or holy men speak for God.

I never said everybody would accept it, I’m saying a voice from the sky is more convincing than some random guy standing on a soap box claiming to be God’s messenger

The real messengers of God are not just some random guys claiming to be God's messengers. They have deeds and scriptures to support their claims.

God would have to be real in order to do it.

Of course God would have to be real in order to do it, but just because you heard a voice from the sky claiming to be God that would not mean it is the real God.

Again I ask: If it would be more effective why hasn't God already done it? Do you think God wants to be ineffective?

So you agree most people claiming to be messengers lie?

Most people who claim to be messengers are lying since there are not that many real messengers of god.
The real messengers of God do not lie, because they really did hear from God.

With a voice from the sky, nobody would have a need to determine because all of the fake religions would be exposed as fake and only the true one religion will remain.

That would only be true if that "voice from the sky" could be verified to be God's voice, which would be impossible.
The voice from the sky would be no different from believing in messengers -- you would still have to believe absent proof.

Well if Baha’u’llah spoke from the sky, far more people would accept him.

How would they know it was Baha'u'llah, or know anything about Him?
If a voice came from the sky saying "I am Baha'u'llah and I am a messenger of God" nobody would believe it was anything but a hoax.

 

[Nakosis]

the problem with personal revelation is why should anybody believe you? History is full of liars claiming to have gotten personal messages from God in an effort to get power and influence over other people. now if God revealed his message in an an audible voice to everybody at the same time so everybody got the same message, that would work better; don't cha think?

Yet people do believe these personal messengers from God.
Ain't that weird?
The majority of people in the world believe in one personal messenger or the other.

 

[Ajax]

Now to paint the correct historical account of Pauls trials in Ephesus...

Part of being a Christian is facing opposition. Just consider what Paul faced in Ephesus. His opposition ranged from minor inconveniences to major trouble........................... What you have done here is factually and historically errant....

I'm well aware of the Acts description of the rioting and also that the historical reliability of the Acts is disputed... BUT..the fact remains that the Revelation states that the voice of Jesus "described" Paul as the false apostle No other apostle claimed to be one in Ephesus but was not, because a) he changed a great deal of important Jesus words and b) he was inconsistent with his writings.. And Jesus appeared pleased that all in Asia condemned Paul.

In reality of course, it is evident that John of Patmos was not keen on Paul's teachings the same as all the disciples. The dispute between Peter (James in fact) and Paul is well known, because Paul wanted the new Gentile converts not to be circumcised, nor to observe the Mosaic Law as he considered it a great threat to his doctrine of salvation through faith in Christ.
In fact I'm certain that all the disciples wondered.. who is this guy who until yesterday chased us, but then suddenly he claimed he saw our Lord in a vision and started teaching differently from what our Lord taught us..

 

[Kfox]

It would be a leap for most people since most people don 't believe God would ever speak from the sky, since they believe that messengers of God or holy men speak for God.

The reason they believe he won’t speak from the sky is because he has never done it. Once he starts everybody will start believing.

The real messengers of God are not just some random guys claiming to be God's messengers. They have deeds and scriptures to support their claims.

What about those who can’t tell the “real” messengers from the fake ones?

Again I ask: If it would be more effective why hasn't God already done it? Do you think God wants to be ineffective?

I’m convinced your idea of God does not exist, but you believe he does so I ask you. How come he hasn’t done this already?

Most people who claim to be messengers are lying since there are not that many real messengers of god.
The real messengers of God do not lie, because they really did hear from God.

How do you decipher the real messenger from the liar?

How would they know it was Baha'u'llah, or know anything about Him?
If a voice came from the sky saying "I am Baha'u'llah and I am a messenger of God" nobody would believe it was anything but a hoax.

I believe if modern technology confirmed it was not a hoax, you would have a lot of people converting from their religion to Baha’u’llah

 

[Kfox]

Yet people do believe these personal messengers from God.
Ain't that weird?

People believe when the messenger confirms the religion they already believe in. IOW a Christian will reject a person claiming to be a Muslim messenger, and the Muslim will reject someone claiming to be a Christian messenger

The majority of people in the world believe in one personal messenger or the other.

But all of the personal messengers can't be right; right? So an awful lot of people are believing lies from people claiming to be personal messengers; agree?

 

[jimb]

the problem with personal revelation is why should anybody believe you? History is full of liars claiming to have gotten personal messages from God in an effort to get power and influence over other people. now if God revealed his message in an an audible voice to everybody at the same time so everybody got the same message, that would work better; don't cha think?

Why should anyone believe you???

 

[jimb]

I do not condemn anyone, but Christian often do condemning those that interpret scripture differently and claim theirs id the only interpretation. I very seriously up front do not believe any fallible human is capable of that level of understanding The Bible.

OK, but this is dominante course of likely the majority Protestant Christianity in the USA that vote. They are voting for Christian Nationalism

Your statement doe not make sense, because you do not know me. I have studied all the major religions for over 50 years, and my threads and posts on this forum for years reflect a deep knowledge in science philosophy and history.

I believe there is a lack of understanding, empathy and knowledge of atheists among Christians given the negative and often hostile view, What I justifiably serious question is the validity of the many conflicting interpretations of the ancient text without provenance making at times absolute claims and often rejecting science,

You question my posts concerning the happiest countries, and did not really respond to my points,

Actually the subject at hand is not my understanding of Christianity, but whether "Understanding the holy scriptures is impossible unless God gives you the interpretation

a) What is the source of your statement that "the majority Protestant Christianity in the USA are voting for Christian nationalism? b) There is no candidate named "Christian Nationalism".

b) I don't care how long you have studied "all the major religions", your opinion of your own opinions isn't worth much.

c) God gives understanding. I consider your understanding to be below that of most Christians that I know.

d) Does God give you a valid understanding of the holy scriptures? And why does anyone need to have an understanding of their own interpretation if s/he understands it already?

 

[Trailblazer]

Yet people do believe these personal messengers from God.
Ain't that weird?

Can you explain why you think that is weird?
What I consider weird is people expecting everyone to get a tailor-made message from God direct from God.
Why would/should God do that, when God can speak to ONE messenger who can get the message out to everyone?

 

[Nakosis]

Can you explain why you think that is weird?
What I consider weird is people expecting everyone to get a tailor-made message from God direct from God.
Why would/should God do that, when God can speak to ONE messenger who can get the message out to everyone?

If people accept that God can communicate with one, why shouldn't they believe God can communicate with them as well?

Moses got a tailor made message. Jesus got a tailor made message. Many prophet in the OT also received messages. Why limit God to just one or a few individuals?

 

[Trailblazer]

If people accept that God can communicate with one, why shouldn't they believe God can communicate with them as well?

Moses got a tailor made message. Jesus got a tailor made message. Many prophet in the OT also received messages. Why limit God to just one or a few individuals?

I think a better question to ask is why people expect God to communicate with them just because God communicated to His Messengers.

Nobody is putting any limits on God, nobody can. Rather, God limits Himself by only doing what He 'chooses' to do.
Why should God do what people expect God to do rather than what God chooses to do?

How much sense would it make for God to reveal everything that He revealed to Moses and Jesus to each and every individual?
What do you think the average person would do with all of that?

There is a logical reason why God speaks only to His Messengers. They were chosen because they had special abilities.

 

[Nakosis]

People believe when the messenger confirms the religion they already believe in. IOW a Christian will reject a person claiming to be a Muslim messenger, and the Muslim will reject someone claiming to be a Christian messenger

Yes, people will accept one but not the other. Sometime some folks see themselves as messengers. This allows them to believe their interpretation of scripture is God given. Some of these folks get propelled to gathering a large following.

But all of the personal messengers can't be right; right? So an awful lot of people are believing lies from people claiming to be personal messengers; agree?

My point is the people making these claims don't believe they are lying. I find certainty and confidence can go a long way to convincing others of their views.

 

[Nakosis]

I think a better question to ask is why people expect God to communicate with them just because God communicated to His Messengers.

Nobody is putting any limits on God, nobody can. Rather, God limits Himself by only doing what He 'chooses' to do.
Why should God do what people expect God to do rather than what God chooses to do?

How much sense would it make for God to reveal everything that He revealed to Moses and Jesus to each and every individual?
What do you think the average person would do with all of that?

There is a logical reason why God speaks only to His Messengers. They were chosen because they had special abilities.

What special ability did Jesus or Moses have that wasn't given to them by God?

 

[Trailblazer]

The reason they believe he won’t speak from the sky is because he has never done it.

Why do you think God is going to start doing that when God has never done that before?
Ever since humans have existed God has sent Messengers. Why would God start doing something different now?

Once he starts everybody will start believing.

Most people already believe in God because of the methods that God has thus far used. Why would God do something differently?

Demographics of atheism

What about those who can’t tell the “real” messengers from the fake ones?

There are ways to tell, as certain criteria that will eliminate the fake ones off right off the bat.

I’m convinced your idea of God does not exist, but you believe he does so I ask you. How come he hasn’t done this already?

Because He chooses not to. An all-powerful God only does what He chooses to do, not what people expect Him to do.

“Say: O people! Let not this life and its deceits deceive you, for the world and all that is therein is held firmly in the grasp of His Will. He bestoweth His favor on whom He willeth, and from whom He willeth He taketh it away. He doth whatsoever He chooseth.” Gleanings, p. 209

How do you decipher the real messenger from the liar?

By looking at his track record. There is a lot of Baha'i history and it is not like the Bible since it was chronicled in modern history.
People who actually knew Baha'u'llah and were related to Him wrote these accounts.

His own Self isThat can be determined by reading about Him in books such as the following: The Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh, Volumes 1-4

What He accomplished on His Mission on earth and who He was, His character, can be determined by reading books such as the following:
God Passes By (1844-1944)
The Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh, Volumes 1-4, which cover the 40 years of His Mission, from 1853-1892.

I believe if modern technology confirmed it was not a hoax, you would have a lot of people converting from their religion to Baha’u’llah

That's true, if modern technology could confirm it was not a hoax.
At the very least, it would be good for advertising, although that could go both ways, since some people would believe it is false advertising.

 

[Trailblazer]

What special ability did Jesus or Moses have that wasn't given to them by God?

None. Their special abilities were given to them by God.