AdamjEdgar
Active Member
you realise that Israel ranks no 5 on that list don't you? and its a very close 5 at that in that number 3 on the list is practically a dead heat between Israel, Finland and Swedan!
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Understanding the holy scriptures is impossible unless God gives you the interpretation
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Ajax
Active Member
Thank you for the effort in writing this, but it is irrelevant to my point which was that Paul, the fake apostle, who has written 3 different ways of salvation, i.e. by a) determinism b) faith alone (not by works, so that no one can boast) and c) by obeying the Law, clearly does not agree with your view that salvation requires two parts, i.e. faith and works.
Paul's intention was to spread the new religion to as many Gentiles (and Jews) as possible, thus his epistles had a "gift" for everyone's beliefs, but his main bait was that faith alone saves, which caused a major disagreement with the disciples. Gentiles did not want Mosaic Law and rituals, so the "faith only saves" was welcomed by them.
Furthermore there are no "prophecies" and Jeremiah 31 is not one either.
When will you understand that a timeless and omniscient God as you describe Him, can not give orders with an expiry date, neither He can change his will and mind?
AdamjEdgar
Active Member
Why. did you only quote a small part of Revelation 2 regarding the church in Ephesus in your reference back to "fake apostle" Paul?
I will address that error first before even getting into what you have talked about above because your reference post is errant and cannot be used as supporting evidence because its interpretation is false!
Correcting the claim that the Apostle Paul is a fake apostle
Note what the very next verse after your quoted part states...
4But I have this against you: You have abandoned your first love. 5Therefore, keep in mind how far you have fallen. Repent and perform the deeds you did at first. But if you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place.
6But you have this to your credit: You hate the works of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
You seem to think that this text is talking about Ephesus having rejected Paul as a false prophet, however, you have that wrong. In fact, the Apostle John is revealing that the church in Ephesus got it wrong and have fallen short of the gospel and its message and that they need to repent or God will remove their lampstand from its place!
Now the reason for your error in understanding of this is exposed in the following bit of trivia...
The apostles Paul and John lived at the same time in history and were contemporaries. They would have almost certainly known each other. Actually, Paul died in about AD 65 and John outlived him by decades (died after AD 100).
John wrote the book of Revelation in the AD 90's...so its comments about the seven churches are retrospective...although we know that the book of Revelation is also an example of type/antitype for end times as well.
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I am not going to even bother answering your statement "there are no prophecies" and "Jeremiah 31 is not one either". honestly, that is nothing more than your personal opinion and its unbiblical...so there isn't any point in engaging with you on that claim...its irrelevant whether or not you agree with biblical statements that disagree with your claims they are what they are.
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I am not particularly interested in your statement about Pauls intent...i can only suggest you read the books of Romans and Hebrews to better understand Pauls theology on Righteousness by Faith in the Grace of Christ and, his explanation of the Old Testament Sanctuary Service and how it applies to salvation.
Both of the above books explain exactly how faith and the law work together in salvation and make it very clear what Pauls position on the gospel and salvation actually was.
I would argue that because of your statement about Pauls ministry, you do not understand that the gospel became necessary because of the requirement for atonement for:
the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God through Christs righteousness was eternal life (Romans 6:23)
The above is Pauls message regarding the law and the gift of salvation by faith in a single text!
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Ajax
Active Member
Because the rest of the text does not change the fact that He "congratulated" those who "have tested those who call themselves apostles but are not, and found them to be false".
Ephesians had sinned on another matter which was abandonment of love they had at first.
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Ajax
Active Member
Everybody is a sinner according to theology and everybody dies one day, either forcefully like Jesus, or from bacteria and viruses that God supposedly created (before Man), but nobody knows if there is eternal life. This is one promise in the Bible to people in order for them to be converted as well as take away the fear of death (Hebrews 2:15 "and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong bondage). But we have read of many promises that never materialized, like the one that Jesus Second Coming would take place during his generation. So there is not much point in believing eternal life either.
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OK, but that does not detract from the facts that the Scandinavian countries top the list. Also you must realize that the percentage of atheist and agnostics is high in Israel and by far the majority consider themselves "culturally Jews" and not religiously Jews. It is obvious that by far the majority of these people are at peace with the world as it is and do not live in the ancient tribal paradigms of the past.
Poll: Israel is One of the World’s Least Religious Countries - Algemeiner.com
Perhaps it's the Jewish state, but the state of Judaism in Israel might raise a few eyebrows: according to an international Gallup poll, Israel is now one of the world's least religious countries. Nearly two-thirds of the Israelis polled either described themselves as not religious, or convinced...
Nearly two-thirds of the Israelis polled either described themselves as not religious, or convinced atheists. Fifty-seven percent of Israelis described themselves as non-religious, while 8% said they were convinced atheists. Just 30% described themselves as religious.
This makes Israel less religious than Japan (62%), Germany (59%), Switzerland (58%) and South Korea (55%). The Jewish state was neck-and-neck with the U.K. and the Netherlands, which both had a 66% non-religious population.
It is very apparent that human happiness is closely related to the atheist, agnostic, secular, and non-religious beliefs of the country. Also these countries have very low cost or even free education, and by far the majority accept the sciences of evolution, physics and cosmology.
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"It is very apparent that human happiness is closely related to the atheist, agnostic, secular, and non-religious beliefs of the country." If this is what you meant to say it is one of the most bizarre statements that I have ever read.OK, but that does not detract from the facts that the Scandinavian countries top the list. Also you must realize that the percentage of atheist and agnostics is high in Israel and by far the majority consider themselves "culturally Jews" and not religiously Jews.
Poll: Israel is One of the World’s Least Religious Countries - Algemeiner.com
Perhaps it's the Jewish state, but the state of Judaism in Israel might raise a few eyebrows: according to an international Gallup poll, Israel is now one of the world's least religious countries. Nearly two-thirds of the Israelis polled either described themselves as not religious, or convinced...www.algemeiner.com
Nearly two-thirds of the Israelis polled either described themselves as not religious, or convinced atheists. Fifty-seven percent of Israelis described themselves as non-religious, while 8% said they were convinced atheists. Just 30% described themselves as religious.
This makes Israel less religious than Japan (62%), Germany (59%), Switzerland (58%) and South Korea (55%). The Jewish state was neck-and-neck with the U.K. and the Netherlands, which both had a 66% non-religious population.
It is very apparent that human happiness is closely related to the atheist, agnostic, secular, and non-religious beliefs of the country. Also these countries have very low cost or even free education, and by far the majority accept the sciences of evolution, physics and cosmology.
Bizarre maybe for those like you that cling to ancient tribal paradigms of the past, but the facts speak for themselves as cited.
I believe I can further present a good argument that those living is a contradictory world out of touch with reality are indeed less happy, lack the potential Free Will, and are a product a type of "brain washing" or social and cultural conditioning at at young age.
I find it very unsettling that traditional Christian and Islamic Theist quote over and over and over redundantly quote the same scripture to justify their ancient tribal paradigm without any coherent relationship to the nature of the world as it is today. It is obviously very unhappy and contradicted to live in the ancient past. The prevalence of the rejection of science increases this contradicted world.
In the USA the increasing desire by many to embrace Christian Nationalism,, prevalence of the rejection of science and conspiracy ridden philosophies like Qanon very much a related problem
Being out of touch with the reality of the world may be considered a form of mental illness.
Please note I do not equate this problem with all Theists, just those that cling mindlessly to a paradigm of ancient tribalism. The problem exemplified by the subject of the thread "Understanding the holy scriptures is impossible unless God gives you the interpretation," reflects the problem that there exists a God given interpretation that is absolutely true and answers all questions based on ancient tribal inspiration. from God. This view would reject counting the teeth in the jaw bones of an *** to determine the correct answer.
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Because you can't correctly understand Scripture is no reason to condemn others who can. People of faith aren't the ones who are can't adjust to the modern world. Most of us are doing just fine. Why? Because, unlike yourself, we have "the peace that passes all understanding".
I agree with you about Christian nationalist politics, which is clearly a false understanding of both Christianity and nationalism. That, however, has nothing to do with your lumping that philosophy with science. For the great majority of my life I was both a Christian and a scientist. You are clearly making general assumptions about people whom you have never met, which is clearly a form of bigotry.
Why not try to understand what Christianity really is instead of condemning the faith of many millions of people.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Why are you assuming that @shunyadragon doesn't understand scripture?
Why are you assuming that he is not a person of faith?
@shunyadragon is a Baha'i. Christianity is not the only religion in the world.
I think that @shunyadragon understands Christianity for what it is - as an ancient tribal paradigm of the past - and that is why he is not Christian.
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AdamjEdgar
Active Member
that love was the gospel.
Now to paint the correct historical account of Pauls trials in Ephesus...
Part of being a Christian is facing opposition. Just consider what Paul faced in Ephesus. His opposition ranged from minor inconveniences to major trouble. First, he encountered people who had an incomplete understanding of discipleship. They didn’t understand baptism and they were unaware of how the Holy Spirit had been poured out on Pentecost (Acts 19:1–5). Next, Paul preached in the synagogues, and he encountered people who began to slander those who followed Jesus. Eventually, Paul was forced to leave the synagogues and set up gatherings in a rented lecture hall (vv.8–10). Some time later, a group of Jewish exorcists began to invoke Jesus’s name; it seems they were motivated by jealousy over the miracles Paul had performed (vv.11–19). In spite of the various difficulties, “the word of the Lord spread and prevailed” (v.20).
One of the loudest opponents Paul faced in Ephesus was Demetrius, a silversmith who made silver shrines of the pagan goddess, Artemis. Paul’s preaching had impacted Demetrius’s business. He saw Paul as a heretic who dared defame the name of his great goddess and as an economic threat. Demetrius incited a riot that was only calmed after an impassioned appeal by the city clerk (vv.21–41). He Reads Truth
Who was Demetrius of Ephesus?
Please read Acts 19 regarding exactly what happened in Ephesus...your assessment of the apostle Paul in your earlier posts is absolutely wrong!
Acts 19: 13Now there were some itinerant Jewish exorcists who tried to invoke the name of the Lord Jesus over those with evil spirits. They would say, “I bind you by Jesus, whom Paul proclaims.” 14Seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, were doing this.
15Eventually, one of the evil spirits answered them, “Jesus I know, and I know about Paul, but who are you?” 16Then the man with the evil spirit jumped on them and overpowered them all. The attack was so violent that they ran out of the house naked and wounded.
17This became known to all the Jews and Greeks living in Ephesus, and fear came over all of them. So the name of the Lord Jesus was held in high honor. 18Many who had believed now came forward, confessing and disclosing their deeds. 19And a number of those who had practiced magic arts brought their books and burned them in front of everyone. When the value of the books was calculated, the total came to fifty thousand drachmas.d 20So the word of the Lord powerfully continued to spread and prevail.
The Riot in Ephesus
21After these things had happened, Paul resolved in the Spirite to go to Jerusalem after he had passed through Macedonia and Achaia. “After I have been there,” he said, “I must see Rome as well.” 22He sent two of his helpers, Timothy and Erastus, to Macedonia, while he stayed for a time in the province of Asia.
23About that time there arose a great disturbancef about the Way. 24It began with a silversmith named Demetrius who made silver shrines of Artemis, bringing much businessg to the craftsmen.
25Demetrius assembled the craftsmen, along with the workmen in related trades. “Men,” he said, “you know that this business is our source of prosperity. 26And you can see and hear that not only in Ephesus, but in nearly the whole province of Asia, Paul has persuaded a great number of people to turn away. He says that man-made gods are no gods at all. 27There is danger not only that our business will fall into disrepute, but also that the temple of the great goddess Artemis will be discredited and her majesty deposed—she who is worshiped by all the province of Asia and the whole world.”
28When the men heard this, they were enraged and began shouting, “Great is Artemis of the Ephesians!” 29Soon the whole city was in disarray. They rushed together into the theatre, dragging with them Gaius and Aristarchus, Paul’s traveling companions from Macedonia.
30Paul wanted to go before the assembly, but the disciples would not allow him. 31Even some of Paul’s friends who were officials of the province of Asiah sent word to him, begging him not to venture into the theatre.
32Meanwhile the assembly was in turmoil. Some were shouting one thing and some another, and most of them did not even know why they were there. 33The Jews in the crowd pushed Alexander forward to explain himself, and he motioned for silence so he could make his defense to the people. 34But when they realized that he was a Jew, they all shouted in unison for about two hours: “Great is Artemis of the Ephesians!”
35Finally the city clerk quieted the crowd and declared, “Men of Ephesus, doesn’t everyone know that the city of Ephesus is guardian of the temple of the great Artemis and of her image, which fell from heaven? 36Since these things are undeniable, you ought to be calm and not do anything rash. 37For you have brought these men here, though they have neither robbed our temple nor blasphemed our goddess.
38So if Demetrius and his fellow craftsmen have a complaint against anyone, the courts are open and proconsuls are available. Let them bring charges against one another there. 39But if you are seeking anything beyond this, it must be settled in a legal assembly. 40For we are in jeopardy of being charged with rioting for today’s events, and we have no justification to account for this commotion.”
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See the thing is, when individuals on these forums present deficient information as factual, others are tricked into believing these things. What you have done here is factually and historically errant. Please do the appropriate research before making such statements as your theology here about Paul being a false apostle based on the riot in Ephesus is absurd.
I have Ajax and others on "ignore", as I won't discuss anything with people who just indulge in insults and personal attacks. I recommend that you do the same. Hopefully, the forum will then become a discussion among reasonable people.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I guess you mean it will become a discussion among Christians who believe as you believe.
You even put Christians on ignore when they don't agree with you. Can't have that!
The most reasonable people here are atheists like my friend @Nimos and @It Aint Necessarily So, not Christians.
Excellent point!
Sgt. Pepper
All you need is love.
Sounds like an echo chamber to me.
the problem with personal revelation is why should anybody believe you? History is full of liars claiming to have gotten personal messages from God in an effort to get power and influence over other people. now if God revealed his message in an an audible voice to everybody at the same time so everybody got the same message, that would work better; don't cha think?
If God gave his message in an audible voice from the sky, or from some of the media outlets, he could prove all the fake Gods false and himself real so everybody would know the real God. IMO had he done this in the first place, none of the other fake Gods would have ever been created.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
A chamber I don't want to be in.
Truthseeker
Non-debating member when I can help myself
I'm not even sure I'm understanding what Paul is saying. He's hard to understand. Off the top of my head, no you don't need very strong faith, just spiritual susceptibility.
Truthseeker
Non-debating member when I can help myself
I know you mean this as being funny, but I find this funny.