Understanding the holy scriptures is impossible unless God gives you the interpretation

[YoursTrue]

It is a fact in the history of humanity it is pretty universal that people are afraid of "what;s going on in the world," Fortunately we no longer need to fear the wrath Zeus, but the problem still exists for persecution, tribal wars. hatred, and worse still exist if one chooses to not believe in the politically accepted tribal belief.

The current paranoid fears in the USA are atheists, Muslims and the LGBTQ folk.

It's different for God-fearing folk. Matthew 24:14, you might want to review that. And some of those that you mention aside from atheists, of course, believe in God and evolution, too, and also believe the Bible is a pack of myths, as you probably do also.

 

[YoursTrue]

Everybody is entitled to their beliefs. I'm not interested though to start a discussion on evolution vs. creation now.

I don't blame you.

Just to say that the Tiktaalik is a fossil about 400 million years old that was discovered in 2004 in northern Canada. It is the most recent discovery in the study of early tetrapod evolution. Tiktaalik is technically a full fish, with scales and gills, but it has a flattened crocodile-like head and unusual fins. Its fins have thin radial bones for swimming like most fish, but they also have strong internal bones, which would have allowed Tiktaalik to use its limbs as support as most quadrupeds do. It has a combination of features that show the evolutionary transition from fish to vertebrate tetrapods, namely it had strong wrist bones, shoulder blades, thick side bones and most importantly a neck that allowed its head to turn as in most tetrapod vertebrates. Continued examination of this fossil showed other commonalities between fish and tetrapods. But the most impressive thing of all is that it was not a simple discovery. The researchers had determined what they wanted to find. Previous research had shown that the vertebrate invasion of land took place around 375-400 million years ago near rivers. So the researchers looked for fossils in rocks about 375 million years old that could have preserved rivers.
Your last two sentences show lack of understanding of how evolution works.

I understand what you're saying about the Tiktaalik, but I'm afraid I don't understand what you're saying about my lack of understanding of how evolution works. But please don't bother explaining, thank you. Since there are no video recordings since the "beginning*." But thanks anyway for your description.
So maybe the evolution of fish to land-dwellers including apes is over? Ya think, or don't scientists know?

 

[shunyadragon]

It's different for God-fearing folk. Matthew 24:14, you might want to review that. And some of those that you mention aside from atheists, of course, believe in God and evolution, too, and also believe the Bible is a pack of myths, as you probably do also.

The Bible contains myths. IT was compiled edited over 2400 years ago without the knowledge of science. It is not a pack of myths.

 

[shunyadragon]

I'm not interested in arguments that have no basis in fact.

Your avoiding the facts. My argument is based on the facts of the history of the Bible, academic history and science.

 

[Trailblazer]

But things have changed since then. many people are afraid of what's going on in the world. And they do not yet understand what the Bible says, and who knows, maybe never will.

The Bible does not say anything because the Bible does not talk.
The Bible has to be read and interpreted by people, and it is interpreted differently by different people...

Now that we have that out of the way, I believe I understand what was prophesied in the Bible and it is all coming down just as prophesied.
That is why I am not afraid.

The old world order is dying and a new world order is rising in its stead. It is happening all around us at an ever-increasing pace.
This is the new earth that is referred to in Revelation 21:1-4.

“Beseech ye the one true God to grant that all men may be graciously assisted to fulfil that which is acceptable in Our sight. Soon will the present-day order be rolled up, and a new one spread out in its stead. Verily, thy Lord speaketh the truth, and is the Knower of things unseen.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 7

Only God knows what will happen to each person.

That has always been the case.

 

[Truthseeker]

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

1 Corinthians 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

This means to me that if a person is spiritual, he can know spiritual realities.

 

[YoursTrue]

The Bible contains myths. IT was compiled edited over 2400 years ago without the knowledge of science. It is not a pack of myths.

Can you delineate or name what you consider myths, please?

 

[Ajax]

1 Corinthians 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

This means to me that if a person is spiritual, he can know spiritual realities.

May I ask you, how are you supposed to receive the Spirit of God? Do you receive it only if you have very strong faith?

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes! He could address the entire world in an audible voice, in a language each of us can understand; and clear up all of the misinformation we have of him

We have been over this before. There are so many logical problems with that proposal that I don't even know where to begin.

1. If an audible voice came from the sky, how would anyone know it was God?
2. If that voice said "now I am going to clear up all the misinformation that you have received from the messengers via scriptures," who would believe that voice, aside from some atheists, who comprise only about 7% of the human population?

Demographics of atheism

You jokin' right???

No, I was not joking.

I said: It is irrelevant that a God who can do anything could do that. God could also eradicate all of creation in one split second. Should God do that?

Apparently you did not understand what I was getting at so allow me to explain. Just because God is all-powerful so God has the power to do anything that does not mean that God should or would do everything that God has the power to do.

In other words, just because God has the power to do what you want God to do that is not a reason why God would or should do it.

Because getting his message across using flawed sinful and dishonest people with personal agendas has not worked.

1. You are assuming, facts not in evidence, that the messengers are flawed, sinful, and dishonest people with personal agendas.
2. You are assuming that God could use 'a better way' to communicate, but you do not know that.
3. God us not only all-powerful., God is also all-knowing, which means that God knows more than any human, since no human is all knowing. That means that God knows 'the best way' to communicate from all the available options.

The way that God communicated has worked because most people in the world believe in God because of a Messenger of God

84 percent of the world population has a faith.

Because most faiths have a religious Founder or what I call a Messenger that means most people believe in God because of a Messenger. We know that Christians and Muslims believe in a Messenger and they comprise 55% of the world population. It does not matter if you call them a Messenger; they are holy men who founded the religions, so they are intermediaries between God and man. Sure, there are a few believers who believe in God but not a Messenger but that is not the norm. The point is that with no Messengers or holy men very few people would believe in God.

Everybody would get the same message, rather than the various messages dishonest messengers give

You do not know that the messengers are dishonest, you only believe that.

In this new age everyone has been given a new message, through the Revelation of Baha'u'llah. It is not God's fault that most people have rejected the new messenger, and that is mostly because they are clinging to their older religious traditions.

Because messengers of God don't have the credibility a voice coming from the sky, confirmed by today's technology as real would provide.

Speak for yourself and what would be credible to YOU. You have no idea what would be credible to other people.
The problems with that method are as follows:

1. God' voice cannot be confirmed by technology.
2. If speaking from the sky was a 'better way' for God to communicate God would have done so, since the all-knowing God knows the best way to communicate.

 

[AdamjEdgar]

First of all you start on a wrong foot. There was never an Adam and Eve. Man has been around for at least 200,000 years. According to the Bible the universe was built in 6 literal days.

There is no contradiction if you don't need faith (and/or works) but you were predestined to be saved before the world began? And even worse, because you were not predestined, you will end up in hell? What kind of justice is this in a religion?

Talking of being saved which of the three is valid?
1) Rom 2:13 "For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified."

2) Gal 2:16 "(We) who know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ"
Eph 2:8-9 "“For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God not by works, so that no one can boast.”

3) James 2:14 "What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?...24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone....26 For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.

I will simply answer the theological challenge above in this post...as its very clear that you do not understand the theology of Salvation by Grace through Faith.

The "dilemma of faith and works"

I am an SDA and our denomination believes that the debate about faith and works rages because a lot of individuals simply do not properly understand it. That is largely because they do not understand the theology and doctrines surrounding the covenants made to Adam and Eve, Abraham, and particularly the "new covenant" given in Jeremiah 31...all of which pointed towards Christ's death on the cross as atonement for sin.

Jeremiah 31: 31Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. 32It will not be like the covenant I made with their fathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt—a covenant they broke, though I was a husband to them,g” declares the LORD.​

33“But this is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD. I will put My law in their minds and inscribe it on their hearts.​

The covenants are all essentially exactly the same...they are not different as is claimed by almost all denominations other than SDA.

The only difference between the covenants...in the new covenant God will write His laws on our hearts and in our minds instead of just on tablets of stone (10 commandments)!

This does not mean, however, that the 10 commandments have been thrown out...the opposite is true...they are now written on all of humanity's hearts...we all know innately the difference between right and wrong!

We know for a fact that the book of Revelation was composed by John in the AD 90's. It was one of the last books of the bible composed and therefore is the culmination of theology and doctrines from those written before it. What does this mean? Well it means that John understand the means to salvation exactly and documented the qualities of those who are saved...ie the saints!

The point is, as described in the book of Revelation, salvation requires two parts, obedience to the commandments of God (10 commandments) and the faith/testimony of Jesus (gospel).

Revelation 14:12​

12Here is a call for the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.​

What you are complaining about and confusing is the point about works. Jesus modeled this when he talked about the Pharisees who prayed out in public for themselves...theirs was an extrinsic religion full of "outwardly showing of good works". They thought that if they looked good they would be saved. Christ showed us that this was a false teaching and that humility and empathy towards others is what really matters. The claim you are attempting to make that works and faith are a contradiction shows you do not understand the theology.

The story of the good Samaritan proves theologically that BOTH faith and works are necessary for salvation, however, the crucial point is that works are the fruits of one's faith.

The apostle Paul highlights this in Galatians...

“The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control…”​

– Galatians 5:22-23

The Fruit of the Spirit: Love, Joy, Peace - National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception

“The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control…” - Galatians 5:22-23 Those who are

www.nationalshrine.org

notice the qualities above are nouns, however, they are demonstrated by actions! The actions/works don't save, but they are a demonstration/result of faith. Christ demonstrated His faith by healing and showing kindness for example.

 

[AdamjEdgar]

If @shunyadragon is right and the Christian is wrong, both end up dead because all physical bodies die at the end of this life.

If @shunyadragon is right and the Christian is wrong, the Christian ends up spiritually dead and @shunyadragon lives forever.

The correct theology on the resurrection is as follows:

When Christ was raised from the dead, was it physical or spiritual?

24Now Thomas called Didymus,d one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord!” But he replied, “Unless I see the nail marks in His hands, and put my finger where the nails have been, and put my hand into His side, I will never believe.” 26Eight days later, His disciples were once again inside with the doors locked, and Thomas was with them. Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you.” 27Then Jesus said to Thomas, “Put your finger here and look at My hands. Reach out your hand and put it into My side. Stop doubting and believe.” 28Thomas replied, “My Lord and my God!”​

Then note what the angels say to the disciples in Acts 1:

11“Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen Him go into heaven.”​

​

​

The point is, the Christian resurrection is both spiritual and physical!

So no, the atheist never wins Pascal's Wager.

 

[osgart]

Studying the Bible for the fate or destiny of one's soul is a pretty cruel and crude method for the salvation of humanity. Why would an all mighty God leave the fate of humanity in the hands of scholars, and ancient eyewitnesses. One must be a detective, and investigator to get to heaven. Wrong beliefs, oops!, hell awaits, sorry!

Plainly speaking, Christianity is inherently cruel, and nowhere near being fair and equal to all of humanity.

 

[Ebionite]

Your avoiding the facts. My argument is based on the facts of the history of the Bible, academic history and science.

What facts, specifically?

 

[shunyadragon]

What facts, specifically?

Our physical existence is billions of years old, humans have been around for at least 200,000 years, There was no such thing as Noah's flood.

 

[Ebionite]

Our physical existence is billions of years old, humans have been around for at least 200,000 years, There was no such thing as Noah's flood.

No, humans were only identified as a (political) category of people a few hundred years BCE.

Also, a denial of the flood isn't a fact.

 

[shunyadragon]

No, humans were only identified as a (political) category of people a few hundred years BCE.

False, humans have been around for over 300,000 years in tribal hunting societies with villages.

Human settlement - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

History. The earliest geographical evidence of a human settlement was Jebel Irhoud, where early modern human remains of eight individuals date back to the Middle Paleolithic around 300,000 years ago.

The oldest remains that have been found of constructed dwellings are remains of huts that were made of mud and branches around 17,000 BC at the Ohalo site (now underwater) near the edge of the Sea of Galilee. The Natufians built houses, also in the Levant, around 10,000 BC. Remains of settlements such as villages become much more common after the invention of agriculture, The oldest of them is Jarmo, Located in iraq.

Also, a denial of the flood isn't a fact.

The fact that no such thing as Noah flood is basic on geologic and historical facts.

 

[Ebionite]

False, humans have been around for over 300,000 years in tribal hunting societies with villages.

You don't know what you're talking about. Early references to people do not use the term 'human'. The earliest use I've found is from Cicero, eg
generis humani.

The fact that no such thing as Noah flood is basic on geologic and historical facts.

... and you don't know what a fact is.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Since there are no video recordings since the "beginning*." But thanks anyway for your description.

Many crimes have no recordings and no witnesses but get solved anyways.

 

[Elihoenai]

Silly Youtube nonsense, and degrading insulting atheists and those that believe different only deepens your privy hole.

This only further confirms the hostile historical problem of Christians attitude toward those who believe differently even among the diverse conflicting beliefs within Christianity.

The Intention is to Increase the Intensity of the Conflict and Divisions between the Few Practitioners of the Only True Religion and the False Religions-Heathen Atheist Alliance. I Am Christian Gnostic Outcast from so-called Christendom.

The Youtube link is the trailer of the movie Eyes Wide Shut. Are you another member on these forums that cannot appreciate and learn from movies?

 

[AdamjEdgar]

Pentateuch. The accounts of ancient mythology without provenance of time written or authorship in complete contradiction with what we know of science and history today.

I see...its all completely different to the Christian bible is it (ie the creation account)? Funny that because i have copied some verses straight out of the Tenach/Torah/Bere****1&2 (Genesis 1&2) and it looks exactly the same to me when i read it!

1In the beginning of God's creation of the heavens and the earth.

אבְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית בָּרָ֣א אֱלֹהִ֑ים אֵ֥ת הַשָּׁמַ֖יִם וְאֵ֥ת הָאָֽרֶץ:

And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light.		גוַיֹּ֥אמֶר אֱלֹהִ֖ים יְהִי־א֑וֹר וַֽיְהִי־אֽוֹר:
4And God saw the light that it was good, and God separated between the light and between the darkness.		דוַיַּ֧רְא אֱלֹהִ֛ים אֶת־הָא֖וֹר כִּי־ט֑וֹב וַיַּבְדֵּ֣ל אֱלֹהִ֔ים בֵּ֥ין הָא֖וֹר וּבֵ֥ין הַחֽשֶׁךְ:
5And God called the light day, and the darkness He called night, and it was evening and it was morning, one day.		הוַיִּקְרָ֨א אֱלֹהִ֤ים | לָאוֹר֙ י֔וֹם וְלַח֖שֶׁךְ קָ֣רָא לָ֑יְלָה וַֽיְהִי־עֶ֥רֶב וַֽיְהִי־בֹ֖קֶר י֥וֹם אֶחָֽד:

And God saw all that He had made, and behold it was very good, and it was evening and it was morning, the sixth day.

לאוַיַּ֤רְא אֱלֹהִים֙ אֶת־כָּל־אֲשֶׁ֣ר עָשָׂ֔ה וְהִנֵּה־ט֖וֹב מְאֹ֑ד וַֽיְהִי־עֶ֥רֶב וַֽיְהִי־בֹ֖קֶר י֥וֹם הַשִּׁשִּֽׁי:

Now the heavens and the earth were completed and all their host.		אוַיְכֻלּ֛וּ הַשָּׁמַ֥יִם וְהָאָ֖רֶץ וְכָל־צְבָאָֽם:
2And God completed on the seventh day His work that He did, and He abstained on the seventh day from all His work that He did.		בוַיְכַ֤ל אֱלֹהִים֙ בַּיּ֣וֹם הַשְּׁבִיעִ֔י מְלַאכְתּ֖וֹ אֲשֶׁ֣ר עָשָׂ֑ה וַיִּשְׁבֹּת֙ בַּיּ֣וֹם הַשְּׁבִיעִ֔י מִכָּל־מְלַאכְתּ֖וֹ אֲשֶׁ֥ר עָשָֽׂה:
3And God blessed the seventh day and He hallowed it, for thereon He abstained from all His work that God created to do.		גוַיְבָ֤רֶךְ אֱלֹהִים֙ אֶת־י֣וֹם הַשְּׁבִיעִ֔י וַיְקַדֵּ֖שׁ אֹת֑וֹ כִּ֣י ב֤וֹ שָׁבַת֙ מִכָּל־מְלַאכְתּ֔וֹ אֲשֶׁר־בָּרָ֥א אֱלֹהִ֖ים לַֽעֲשֽׂוֹת:
4These are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created, on the day that the Lord God made earth and heaven.		דאֵ֣לֶּה תֽוֹלְד֧וֹת הַשָּׁמַ֛יִם וְהָאָ֖רֶץ בְּהִ֣בָּֽרְאָ֑ם בְּי֗וֹם עֲשׂ֛וֹת יְהֹוָ֥ה אֱלֹהִ֖ים אֶ֥רֶץ וְשָׁמָֽיִם: