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Unfair opinions about Islam :(

Lyndon

"Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
Premium Member
You need to learn a bit about Tolkien!! You're calling me a bigot??? for pointing out Sauron and the one ring represented evil in the Lord of the Rings. Tolkien was a close friend of CS Lewis, his theology was very Christian oriented.
 
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Sees

Dragonslayer
Tolkien was a combat vet steeped in pre-Christian Euro traditions like my self - these he used mixed with his Christian education and beliefs to go after primarily imperialism and industrialization. The true heroes being the country folk of the shire/heath who care about simple things of life like song, food, good company, etc., an Odin-like figure, elves, dwarves, and heroic men. He used fantasy and forgotten things to criticize his own culture/world around him without committing social-suicide. He idealized simplicity and self-rule as did his heroes.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
You need to learn a bit about Tolkien!!

As you wish. Whatever.

You're calling me a bigot???

I am calling your post bigoted, which it was, gloriously so at that. It was actually impressive in a certain way. Make of that what you will.

for pointing out Sauron and the one ring represented evil in the Lord of the Rings. Tolkien was a close friend of CS Lewis, his theology was very Christian oriented.

That is certainly true.

Which is why your post was so darned bigoted.
 

Lyndon

"Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
Premium Member
Well I can't remember ever being called "bigoted" before, there's always a first time though, I guess opinions are a dangerous thing to have around here!!!
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
  • Odious: "(Such) as dispute about the signs of God, without any authority that hath reached them. Grievous and odious (is such conduct) in the sight of God and of the Believers." [40: 35]
  • Mocked: "But on this Day the Believers will laugh at the Unbelievers." [83: 34]
  • Punished: "But ye have indeed rejected (Him), and soon will come the inevitable (punishment)!" [25: 77]

etc. etc.

A pointless post, imo .. I normally read a book in the order it was written. We can all pick out verses from a scripture and make it read how we want it to read.

True knowledge does not involve spewing like a parrot :)
 

Sees

Dragonslayer
Depends on how you define "non-believer". They used this against people who betrayed Muslims and sided with the Arab Pagans or whoever they were fighting at the time.

How could it have been worded in such a way to lend permanency to the idea of not taking nonbelievers for friends, other than the wording already used?

There are no time or condition restraints, and it's not taken as a light matter of importance. Everybody not Muslim posed a threat because they must become Muslim or be subdued by them. It creates and perpetuates conflict with nonbelievers, automatically. There was no stop at this number or this location - it was fight/kill if there was resistance. If there was no resistance, thinking that there was secret plotting of resistance was often sufficient.

You can choose to read "benefit of the doubt" into it if you wish.
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
..Everybody not Muslim posed a threat because they must become Muslim or be subdued by them. It creates and perpetuates conflict with nonbelievers, automatically..

No .. the only people who pose a threat are those who try to create enmity between us..
Naturally, satan is the boss of this activity

"they must become Muslim or be subdued by them" relates to those disbelievers who attack the Muslim state/nation. It's no different in a war involving ANY nation, is it?
ie. be subdued
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
"they must become Muslim or be subdued by them" relates to those disbelievers who attack the Muslim state/nation.
"Although dhimmis were allowed to perform their religious rituals, they were obliged to do so in a manner not conspicuous to Muslims. Display of non-Muslim religious symbols, such as crosses or icons, was prohibited on buildings and on clothing (unless mandated as part of distinctive clothing). Loud prayers were forbidden, as were the ringing of church bells or the trumpeting of shofars. They were also not allowed to build or repair churches without Muslim consent. .. In the Mamluk Egypt, where non-Mamluk Muslims were not allowed to ride horses and camels, dhimmis were prohibited even from riding donkeys inside cities. Sometimes, Muslim rulers issued regulations requiring dhimmis to attach distinctive signs to their houses." Dhimmi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"The intention of taking the jizya is not to approve the disbelief of non-Muslims in Islam, but rather to spare their lives and to give them some time; in hope that during it; they might stop to reflect on the virtues of Islam and its compelling arguments, and consequently converting from disbelief to belief. That's why it's important to pay the jizya with humiliation and servility, because naturally, any sensible person cannot stand humiliation and servility. So if the disbeliever is given some time watching the pride of Islam and hearing evidences of its authenticity, and see the humiliation of the disbelief, then apparently this might carry him to convert to Islam, and that's the main rationale behind the enactment of the jizya." Jizya - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"The rate of jizya and Kharaj tax, head tax and land tax respectively, exceeded 20% for all non-Muslims, and payable by new moon. In the western Islamic states, for dhimmis who were Christians and Jews of Egypt and Morocco, these taxes were often graded into three levels with minimum rate being 20% of all estimated assets and any sales. The highest rates ranged from 33% to 80% of all annual farm produce on land inside the Islamic empire. In the eastern Islamic states, for dhimmis who were Hindus and Jains, the tax structure were similar, with non-Muslims paying jizya and Kharaj tax rate at least twice the zakat tax rate paid by Muslims." Jizya - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Other taxes payable, by or from the property of non-Muslim subjects, along with jizya were fai, ghanima and ushur. Fai (sometimes spelled fay) was non-Muslim property seized by a Muslim official; the non-Muslim was sometimes allowed to reclaim the seized property by paying 100% of assessed value of the seized property. Ghanima was the 20% tax paid by the Muslim army commander on the booty and plunder collected from non-Muslims by force (anwatan) after a war or after the commander launched a raid against non-Muslim trade posts, temples, or caravans. The commander and his Muslim soldiers were entitled to keep 80% of the booty. Ushur (sometimes spelled ushr) was customs tax payable when people entered or exited the borders of an Islamic state. Non-Muslims paid twice the rate than Muslims on assessed value of property in possession of the transiting person. This was in addition to the jizya." Jizya - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

Sees

Dragonslayer
No .. the only people who pose a threat are those who try to create enmity between us..
Naturally, satan is the boss of this activity

"they must become Muslim or be subdued by them" relates to those disbelievers who attack the Muslim state/nation. It's no different in a war involving ANY nation, is it?
ie. be subdued

People who attack in retaliation for the ultimatums imposed on them by Muslims, perhaps.

The way modern apologetics turn and direct it is far different from authentic Hadith interpretations and historical implementation. Islam was/is supposed to be rule of law, regardless of attacks on Muslims. Accomplished through ultimatums and action until religion is for Allah alone - not until people are friendly or peaceful towards Muslims.

The Christians and Jews were not attacking Muslims per history written by Muslims, the only enmity they were guilty of was simply not accepting Muhammad as a prophet - which Muhammad/Allah said sowed doubt among believers and was reason enough to not accept them as friends or trustworthy people.
 

Lyndon

"Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
Premium Member
Just as today no Christians or Jews are asking for attacking Muslims, only vice versa!!
 

Sees

Dragonslayer
Whether any Christians or Jews today want to fight Muslims has nothing to do with the reason Muhammad/Allah wanted Muslims to not take them for friends - starting with the beginnings of Islam. It has everything to do with their disbelief in Muhammad and Islam.


.
 

Lyndon

"Peace is the answer" quote: GOD, 2014
Premium Member
My point was the Koran seems to be full of stories of Christians, Jews and pagan Arabs trying to attack and kill the prophet and his followers.
 

Sees

Dragonslayer
...seems to be full of stories of Christians, Jews and pagan Arabs trying to attack and kill the prophet and his followers.

Really just the one group of pagans who he wanted to convert...they weren't having it. Muslims were the ones to go after Christians and Jews per Muslim sources - with ultimatums of course, not outright slaughter.

A lot of people forget, or have no idea, that according to authentic Hadith sayings Muhammad said Muslims were to conquer Egypt, Jerusalem, Persia...what did the pagans, Jews, Christians there do to any Muslims?

The defense only stuff is a myth.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
My point was the Koran seems to be full of stories of Christians, Jews and pagan Arabs trying to attack and kill the prophet and his followers.
And yet, Muhammad never acknowledged how his own ideology attacked the sensibilities of those around him who did not follow his thinking. And never seems to wonder why they began to move against him.... some prophet. Heck, I could have predicted that.
 
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