Unintelligent Design

[dust1n]

Why not?

For the same reason luck never will.

 

[Robert.Evans]

"Ever seen luck create a universe?Nope."



Ever seen it? Nope.



Ever seen it? Nope.



Ever seen it? Nope,
.


...

You said I had not given you a good definition of God - though I had. So i added that to it, and that is you best reply. Someone is not really listening.

 

[Robert.Evans]

For the same reason luck never will.

Go ahead, explain.

 

[dust1n]

You said I had not given you a good definition of God - though I had. So i added that to it, and that is you best reply. Someone is not really listening.

Because you claim these attributes are of God despite the fact have never seen this. At the same time, you dismiss "luck" because no one has ever seen it the world made from luck.

You can keep adding to the definition, but you have no way of knowing if any of these attributes are true... at least no more way of knowing than the way one can say the universe is here for luck.

 

[dust1n]

Go ahead, explain.

Like just mentioned... a belief in God can, at best, be as strong as a belief in Luck.

 

[Robert.Evans]

Because you claim these attributes are of God despite the fact have never seen this. At the same time, you dismiss "luck" because no one has ever seen it the world made from luck.

You can keep adding to the definition, but you have no way of knowing if any of these attributes are true... at least no more way of knowing than the way one can say the universe is here for luck.

I think you mean, YOU have no way of knowing. Don't include me in it.

Like just mentioned... a belief in God can, at best, be as strong as a belief in Luck.

No. Intelligence explains complexity; luck does not.

 

[dust1n]

I think you mean, YOU have no way of knowing. Don't include me in it.

Sorry, unless you can demonstrate what you claim to be true to actually be true, there is no reason to think you know any claim you make.

No. Intelligence explains complexity; luck does not.

Nope. Luck explains complexity. Intelligence explains complexity. Both explanations which you've never seen before.

 

[rusra02]

Where in the Bible does it say Adam's DNA mutated because of his sin?

It doesn't, of course. It does say sin entered the world through Adam and thus spread to all men. (Romans 5:12)

 

[The Sparrow]

No. Intelligence explains complexity; luck does not.

What's with the misleading use of 'luck'. Sure, mutations are chance driven, but natural selection is not.
To call our being here 'luck' is to ignore a fundamental necessary part of the process.

 

[dust1n]

It doesn't, of course. It does say sin entered the world through Adam and thus spread to all men. (Romans 5:12)

Sure. That means all men sin. It doesn't mean sin is responsible for Tay-Sachs disease...

Where is this in the Bible?

I think that had Adam not sinned, his DNA and his descendant's DNA would have functioned flawlessly.

You think this true, despite any evidence, and also the Bible makes no such claim.

I believe what the Bible says; sickness is part of the death we have inherited from our first parent. Like throwing acid on a masterpiece, sin has damaged us physically, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually. (Isaiah 33:24)

That's not what Isaiah 33:24 says... "No one living in Zion will say, “I am ill”;
and the sins of those who dwell there will be forgiven."

It doesn't say anything about sickness being apart of original sin...

 

[rusra02]

Isaiah links absence of sickness with forgiveness of sins, as does Jesus also. Before healing a paralyzed man, Jesus told him his sins were forgiven. (Matthew 9:2-7) Sickness and the aging of the body are simply part of the dying process all people experience. Adam would experience pain as he gradually experienced approaching death. ( Genesis 3:17-19)
In contrast, God promises that under the rulership of Jesus Christ, "death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.” (Revelation 21:3,4) I believe Jesus showed his and his Father's ability and desire to 'cure every sort of disease and infirmity' by the miraculous healing he performed during his earthly ministry. (Matthew 9:35)

 

[dust1n]

Isaiah links absence of sickness with forgiveness of sins, as does Jesus also. Before healing a paralyzed man, Jesus told him his sins were forgiven. (Matthew 9:2-7) Sickness and the aging of the body are simply part of the dying process all people experience. Adam would experience pain as he gradually experienced approaching death. ( Genesis 3:17-19)

Jesus didn't heal a baby with Tay-Sachs disease. I guess if Jesus would forgive them of their sins, that's the only thing necessary.... time's running out.

In contrast, God promises that under the rulership of Jesus Christ, "death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.” (Revelation 21:3,4) I believe Jesus showed his and his Father's ability and desire to 'cure every sort of disease and infirmity' by the miraculous healing he performed during his earthly ministry. (Matthew 9:35)

Seeing is believing, and all.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

What's with the misleading use of 'luck'. Sure, mutations are chance driven, but natural selection is not.
To call our being here 'luck' is to ignore a fundamental necessary part of the process.

Yes, luck v. intelligence is a false dichotomy. False dichotomies are often used by theologians, it's really all they have left! Scraping the metaphysical barrel so to speak.

 

[Robert.Evans]

What's with the misleading use of 'luck'. Sure, mutations are chance driven, but natural selection is not.
To call our being here 'luck' is to ignore a fundamental necessary part of the process.

Natural selection itself must arise through luck. You ignore that? Every process that is necessary to take something random to non-randomness must come about through luck if there is no intelligence. What evidence do you have that is the case?

 

[The Sparrow]

Natural selection itself must arise through luck. You ignore that? Every process that is necessary to take something random to non-randomness must come about through luck if there is no intelligence. What evidence do you have that is the case?

Natural selection means the mutations that are advantageous to an organism in its particular environment, get preserved by being passed down to its offspring.
Think of it this way. 2 human mothers have children. One child is born with a mutation that makes its leg muscles slightly shorter and stiffer, the other has a mutation that makes them slightly longer and stronger.
As a result of this, child 2 can more easily run after prey can catch it for food. Child 2 becomes more successful in his environment, lives longer, and can have more children as a result.
That mutation is more likely to get passed genetically to other humans over time.
The mutation is random, but selection preserves it.

So, yes it is a combination of luck and environmental pressures. The latter is the selection part.

 

[Robert.Evans]

Yes, luck v. intelligence is a false dichotomy. False dichotomies are often used by theologians, it's really all they have left! Scraping the metaphysical barrel so to speak.

Explain, please. I am all ears.

 

[Robert.Evans]

Natural selection means the mutations that are advantageous to an organism in its particular environment, get preserved by being passed down to its offspring.

Think of it this way. 2 human mothers have children. One child is born with a mutation that makes its leg muscles slightly shorter and stiffer, the other has a mutation that makes them slightly longer and stronger.

As a result of this, child 2 can more easily run after prey can catch it for food. Child 2 becomes more successful in his environment, lives longer, and can have more children as a result.

That mutation is more likely to get passed genetically to other humans over time.

The mutation is random, but selection preserves it.


So, yes it is a combination of luck and environmental pressures. The latter is the selection part.

I don’t need to kno what NS is, I know.

What I said was:

“Natural selection itself must arise through luck. You ignore that? Every process that is necessary to take something random to non-randomness must come about through luck if there is no intelligence. What evidence do you have that is the case?”

This “natural” process that preserves beneficial mutations. I am asking how you explain it. Put it this way, if I said God sorted it, you would sure as heck want to know what this “God” was. So now I am asking you what this “natural” is. Where does it come from? How does it develop to such a stage? What made it? What other processes made the processes of NS? For you to say it is “natural” is no different than someone else sayin, “God did it.” Now you are saying that, “Natural did it.”

Do you understand yet?

 

[Rick O'Shez]

Explain, please. I am all ears.

Luck and intelligence aren't mutually exclusive. Have you ever played cards?

 

[The Sparrow]

I don’t need to kno what NS is, I know.

What I said was:

“Natural selection itself must arise through luck. You ignore that? Every process that is necessary to take something random to non-randomness must come about through luck if there is no intelligence. What evidence do you have that is the case?”

This “natural” process that preserves beneficial mutations. I am asking how you explain it. Put it this way, if I said God sorted it, you would sure as heck want to know what this “God” was. So now I am asking you what this “natural” is. Where does it come from? How does it develop to such a stage? What made it? What other processes made the processes of NS? For you to say it is “natural” is no different than someone else sayin, “God did it.” Now you are saying that, “Natural did it.”

Do you understand yet?

I'm not sure how I could explain it more clearly.

I don’t need to know what NS is, I know.
Forgive me, from your responses it appeared you did not.

So now I am asking you what this “natural” is. Where does it come from?
hmmmm, not sure I understand. Are you looking for this?
big bang - inflation - cooling - coaslesce of matter into larger masses - stars - planets - earth

For you to say it is “natural” is no different than someone else sayin, “God did it.” Now you are saying that, “Natural did it.”
Could you explain what you mean by "God"?

Do you understand yet?
Why the hostile tone? If you'd like to proceed in that way I'm fine with it, I just don't understand why you are started off with such a patronizing tone.


Ultimately though, yes there was 'luck' involved, luck in terms of which mutations arose, luck in terms of an asteroid wiping the dinosaurs out, luck in our particular planet being in the goldilocks zone, etc.
Luck, assuming one doesn't accept determinism of course.

But it isn't luck in the sense of an ape suddenly giving birth to a human because a whole pile of mutations took place at once.

 

[Robert.Evans]

Ultimately though, yes there was 'luck' involved, luck in terms of which mutations arose, luck in terms of an asteroid wiping the dinosaurs out, luck in our particular planet being in the goldilocks zone, etc.
Luck, assuming one doesn't accept determinism of course.

But it isn't luck in the sense of an ape suddenly giving birth to a human because a whole pile of mutations took place at once.

You are the first person to admit it in such clear terms that luck has created YOUR universe. I wonder how you accept that, but I congratulate you for it.

This energy, if I can use that term for want of a better one, just changes into other stuff does it, and then eventually creates a universe. All the necessary attributes of creation are there waiting to be exploited are they? And you, as an atheist, accept it as being “natural” and that explains it. Is that right?

Do you not see any problems with that?

It doesn’t really matter about evolution and natural selection when you have to have so much luck and blind chance in the first place to get to a stage where the “natural” has some form of AI to make non-randomness appear from randomness.


In other words, either “Luckdidit” or “Naturaldidit”. Don’t you think that is more absurd than saying there was intelligence involved? I would like you to think about it before you come back with a usual atheist pat reply.