Universal Reconciliation religion.

[savagewind]

Thank you. What does Ecclesiastes 9:10 mean please?

Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the grave, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.

To recognize the error of one's ways in order to feel sorry and repent is wisdom. Does Ecclesiastes say there is no wisdom after death?

 

[sojourner]

Thank you. What does Ecclesiastes 9:10 mean please?

Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the grave, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.

The ancient Jews didn't have a concept of heaven. They had Sheol -- the place of shadows -- where dead people went.

 

[savagewind]

The ancient Jews didn't have a concept of heaven. They had Sheol -- the place of shadows -- where dead people went.

OK. There is no possibility of repentance there as Ecclesiastes warns.

 

[Katzpur]

Thank you. What does Ecclesiastes 9:10 mean please?

Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the grave, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.

To recognize the error of one's ways in order to feel sorry and repent is wisdom. Does Ecclesiastes say there is no wisdom after death?

Well, I don't think it's quite as straightforward as you're making it. First of all, let's look at what the scripture in question actually says..."Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest." Consider, along with that verse, Ecclesiastes 12:7, which says, "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." Do you believe that both the body and the spirit are dead? I know some people do, so I'm just asking. I believe that at death, the spirit leaves the body, and as a result, the body dies. A dead body, a body in the grave, does not have wisdom. I believe that the spirit, however, continues to live. What possible use would God have for the dead spirits of all mankind? The spirit is eternal; it continues to exist after death as a cognizant entity and can increase in wisdom.

Have you ever thought about visit Christ made to the spirits in prison during the period of time His body lay in the tomb. He preached His gospel to them. Had they been unable to receive it, there would have been no point whatsoever in Him preaching it.

 

[savagewind]

Well, I don't think it's quite as straightforward as you're making it. First of all, let's look at what the scripture in question actually says..."Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest." Consider, along with that verse, Ecclesiastes 12:7, which says, "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." Do you believe that both the body and the spirit are dead? I know some people do, so I'm just asking. I believe that at death, the spirit leaves the body, and as a result, the body dies. A dead body, a body in the grave, does not have wisdom. I believe that the spirit, however, continues to live. What possible use would God have for the dead spirits of all mankind? The spirit is eternal; it continues to exist after death as a cognizant entity and can increase in wisdom.

That makes Ecclesiastes a silly moot point. Is it a silly moot point?

 

[Katzpur]

OK. There is no possibility of repentance there as Ecclesiastes warns.

So those who died without ever having the opportunity to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ are just screwed more or less?

 

[Katzpur]

That makes Ecclesiastes a silly moot point. Is it a silly moot point?

I think it makes your conclusion kind of silly, but that's about all. On the other hand, I would definitely say that your perspective makes Christ's visit to the spirit prison a moot point.

 

[savagewind]

I think it makes your conclusion kind of silly, but that's about all. On the other hand, I would definitely say that your perspective makes Christ's visit to the spirit prison a moot point.

Actually no. The spirit prison is populated by the fallen angels. Did you ever hear the spirit sons of God came first?

 

[savagewind]

So those who died without ever having the opportunity to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ are just screwed more or less?

No. I have the same hope in God as these men, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. Acts 24:15
It's not to heavenly life. It means "a standing up again"

 

[Meshak]

So those who died without ever having the opportunity to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ are just screwed more or less?

God is not unjust. I am sure they will have opportunity to hear Jesus' word and given chance like everyone else who heard His word.

 

[savagewind]

So those who died without ever having the opportunity to hear the gospel of Jesus Christ are just screwed more or less?

You sound confused. First you say the only thing deserving death is to deny the Holy Ghost. Now you are saying they are screwed if they do not hear the gospel.

 

[Katzpur]

Actually no. The spirit prison is populated by the fallen angels.

I disagree.

 

[Katzpur]

No. I have the same hope in God as these men, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. Acts 24:15
It's not to heavenly life. It means "a standing up again"

So if they were wicked, but knew nothing of the gospel of Jesus Christ, what do you believe their fate to be? An eternity in Hell?

 

[Katzpur]

God is not unjust. I am sure they will have opportunity to hear Jesus' word and given chance like everyone else who heard His word.

Well, that's good to hear. When do you believe this will take place?

 

[Katzpur]

You sound confused.

I do? The only thing I'm confused about is how you could possible have come to that conclusion.

First you say the only thing deserving death is to deny the Holy Ghost.

Actually, I didn't say that at all. I said that's the only sin described in the Bible as being "unforgivable." All will die. As to whether their sins will be forgiven or not is another matter. I believe that all sins except one may be forgiven.

Now you are saying they are screwed if they do not hear the gospel.

Would you mind quoting me on that? I said exactly the opposite. You're the one who said that there is no opportunity of repentence after death, not me. And that would essentially mean automatic condemnation of everyone who had lived and died without ever having had the opportunity to hear the gospel message.

 

[Meshak]

Well, that's good to hear. When do you believe this will take place?

JWs teaches it will take place in millennial. And I agree with them. They make sense.

I dont believe in eternal hell fire. Jesus says non-believers will perish.

God is not God of cruelty.

 

[Katzpur]

JWs teaches it will take place in millennial. And I agree with them. They make sense.

Okay. It doesn't make sense to me at all, but to each his own.

I dont believe in eternal hell fire.

I don't either.

Jesus says non-believers will perish.

You'd have to give me chapter and verse in order for me to comment.

 

[Meshak]

You'd have to give me chapter and verse in order for me to comment.

John 3-16

"for God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life".

 

[Katzpur]

John 3-16

"for God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life".

Then I guess it gets down to what He meant by "eternal life." He also said (in 1 Corinthians 15:22), "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." I would agree that being "made alive" doesn't necessarily mean the same thing as "having eternal life" (although I can understand how someone might interpret them that way). But the statement that "all will be made alive" certainly does contradict the notion that "non-believers will perish."

 

[Meshak]

Then I guess it gets down to what He meant by "eternal life." He also said (in 1 Corinthians 15:22), "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." I would agree that being "made alive" doesn't necessarily mean the same thing as "having eternal life" (although I can understand how someone might interpret them that way). But the statement that "all will be made alive" certainly does contradict the notion that "non-believers will perish."

Read John 3-16 again.