Don't kid yourself about me.
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Universal Reconciliation religion.
- Thread starter Meshak
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Don't kid yourself about me.
The one good dead of repentance gets you in according to many.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Life is all about the struggle between good and evil, learning to distinguish between them and chosing the right. It's about improving from day to day and becoming what we, as God's offspring, have been given the potential to become.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Possibly at the time, it is. But surely you're not saying that you feel better having made bad choices than good choices.
Sympathy for the suffering caused by crimes against whole families, including many,many innocents seems to be enough to believe we will never see Hitler and the likes of that sort in Heaven. If Heaven is a place of peace and holiness he is not there. If it is something else, then OK, maybe Hitler is there.
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
You're preaching to the choir.
Dang it! we need a choir emoticon!
Guess this'll have to do in a pinch:
:-0 :-0 :-0 :-0 :-0 :-0
My bad choices is called my children. I love them!
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
So are you saying there is no such thing as true repentence? And no such thing as forgiveness for something a person has repented of?
:ymca:
It's not generic. I am not saying true repentance is not real. I am not saying "something" can not be forgiven. I am saying that some sins of some people become so numerous it would become impossible to repent of them all.
But....you are someone saying Hitler can be found in heaven. Is that right? Then there are two lives here. One like you say, and I agree! And then the kind that live and die wickedly. What you say above does not apply to such ones.
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Sympathy for the suffering has little to do with repentance. Of course I have a great deal of sympathy for the Holocaust Jews -- and anyone else who suffers oppression. When it comes to heaven, I think that, above all, it's a place of wholeness. How can we be whole if we're not all there? How can God's intention for humanity be fully realized if some of God's children are MIA? Peace and holiness can only be achieved where there is perfect forgiveness.
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
It sounds good but I do not buy it. Those words remind me of 2 Corinthians 11:14 Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. Not all there? How is it scriptural that all are there? Isn't it combining light with darkness together?
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Repentance isn't a quantitative venture. That's what Jesus meant when he said, "forgive 70 x 7." It doesn't matter how rotten you've been for how long. Repentance is the same for Hitler as it is for Mother Teresa. That being said, I'm sure that the process of forgiveness is longer and more involved for the victims, and I'm also sure that wrestling with his own guilt and shame would be far more involved -- but a turning of the heart is a turning of the heart.
Is the turning of the heart result in good works in heaven? How does a person grow in love in heaven, do you think?
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
"Your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should be lost." Mt. 18:14
"All humankind will see God's salvation." Lk. 3:6
"The Son of Man came to seek and save what was lost." Lk. 19:10
"God did not send God's Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him." Jn. 3:17
"When I am lifted up, I will draw all humanity to myself." Jn. 12:32
There's much, much more.
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
It usually works that way on earth.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Actually, I haven't said anything at all about Hitler. First off, I don't believe anybody goes directly to their final destination, so I don't believe Hitler's in Heaven now any more than you do. I believe that Hitler is more than likely in a state of overwhelming mental anguish right now for all the evil he inflicted on millions of innocent people, and that he will likely remain in that state for a very long time. That does not mean, however, that I believe he can never be forgiven for his acts of cruelty. I don't believe that death marks the final falling of the curtain and that there is no opportunity for the wicked to have a change of heart after death, while they are awaiting their own resurrections. I believe that if Hitler does truly repent, feel genuine remorse for his actions, and look to Jesus Christ for salvation, that through Christ's Atonement, he will be forgiven of his sins and will be allowed to enter Heaven at the time of Christ's Second Coming. If, on the other hand, he remains unrepentent, he will be made to suffer punishment for his sins, rather than being spared that punishment through the grace of Christ. I believe he will, in this case, be punished for the one thousand year period of time that Christ reigns here on Earth. At the end of that thousand years, he will have finally come to acknowledge that Jesus Christ could have provided a much easier way than the one he ended up choosing, but by then, the debt he incurred by his horrible deads will have been paid in full -- by him and not by Christ -- and, because of Christ's love for him will be forgiven and allowed to enter Heaven.
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