'Unliftable Stone' Paradox - Logically flawed argument people make even today

[Madsaac]

Have you considered your own talents, flaws, affinities, and aversions? What is the explanation for these? It's one example which can be rather easily extended to each and every human being on the planet. Do you disagree? That's a lot of unexplained phenomena. Isn't it?

Yes I have considered these traits and I believe they are just part of being human, these traits have developed through evolution, we all have them and we have them for a reason, nothing 'miraculous' about that.

 

[dybmh]

Yes I have considered these traits and I believe they are just part of being human, these traits have developed through evolution, we all have them and we have them for a reason, nothing 'miraculous' about that.

There's nothing miraculous about it for you.

For me: "just part of being human" is approx. the same as saying "miracle" except that the word "miracle" includes "awe" where as your description is completely absent of "awe". Just part of being human. "Just" indicates a complete absence of awe and wonder. There's nothing wrong with this, and I doubt you are actually absent of awe and wonder. I hope you understand what I mean?

The point I'm trying to make here, is, that there is a great deal of phenomena which is not being explained in regard to these personality traits. You have put them in a bucket labeled "developed through evolution". Once the phenomena are in this bucket, the brain ignores all of the unknowns, for good reasons. But the cognition of "developed through evolution" is not different than "miracle" if it is "just a part of being human". All that's missing is awe and wonder: curiosity.

If so: it's just as logical to believe in miracles as it is to believe your unique brilliance ( the conjunction of your personality traits ) is just part of being human.

 

[Madsaac]

There's nothing miraculous about it for you.

For me: "just part of being human" is approx. the same as saying "miracle" except that the word "miracle" includes "awe" where as your description is completely absent of "awe". Just part of being human. "Just" indicates a complete absence of awe and wonder. There's nothing wrong with this, and I doubt you are actually absent of awe and wonder. I hope you understand what I mean?

The point I'm trying to make here, is, that there is a great deal of phenomena which is not being explained in regard to these personality traits. You have put them in a bucket labeled "developed through evolution". Once the phenomena are in this bucket, the brain ignores all of the unknowns, for good reasons. But the cognition of "developed through evolution" is not different than "miracle" if it is "just a part of being human". All that's missing is awe and wonder: curiosity.

If so: it's just as logical to believe in miracles as it is to believe your unique brilliance ( the conjunction of your personality traits ) is just part of being human.

Maybe some people, for whatever reason, need to believe that there is more to being human (a miracle) then the fact that we are animals, that have evolved to be these incredible, intelligent beings. I think that is much more exciting then believing in miracles.

And thinking our humanity is miraculous, actually might stifle awe and wonder because these beliefs mean the questions have already been answered, they come from a higher power.

And some people already believe in the afterlife, or believe in some supernatural presence is guiding us, stifling curiosity.

 

[Regiomontanus]

I would agree, but I see that would be a limited knowledge.

See if I can offer a metephor. It would be seeing the picture but not knowing the artist.

We are created to know and Love God, creation is only part of that knowledge, the "I Am" is the source.

Regards Tony

Do you believe in the Holy Spirit? If so, what role in knowing God?

 

[firedragon]

Surely, when you read this, miracles are simply illogical

Why? What do you mean by "illogical". Do you mean logically impossible or is a logical contradiction? And explain why you think it is.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Why?

I already asked and didn't get any actual reasoning. But maybe you have better luck.

 

[dybmh]

Maybe some people, for whatever reason, need to believe that there is more to being human (a miracle) then the fact that we are animals, that have evolved to be these incredible, intelligent beings. I think that is much more exciting then believing in miracles.

I think they're both exciting. However I was referring to awe and wonder: curiosity.

Hopefully, it sounds like you're seeing the parallel I was trying to describe? Unless you know and understand all there is to know and understand about biology chemistry physics and the history of life on planet earth, there is quite a lot of phenomena which is beyond your awareness regarding how the human being evolved into what we are today. This is not unlike belief in miracles in some ways. You may not appreciate the comparison. I'm not saying there is equal evidence. I'm saying it's not illogical.

There's also another factor which I think should be included. Are you rewarded, psychologically by denying miracles and convincing yourself that these sort of ideas are false? The reason I ask is, the objection to the concept of "miracles" is likely more complex than simple logic or lack of evidence. It's easy to overlook how rewarding and satisfying it feels to distance oneself from these notions for a whole host of good reasons. Good reasons. These reasons get bundled together and labeled a logical objection, when in fact there's a lot more happening.

And thinking our humanity is miraculous, actually might stifle awe and wonder because these beliefs mean the questions have already been answered, they come from a higher power.

I disagree. It's possible, but, it has not been my experience that the God belief stifles exploration into the empirical sciences. All one needs to do is look at the history of science to see that almost all of our scientific knowledge until recent history came from religious people. There is no reason to believe that the religious beliefs, themselves, compromise the desire for scientific pursuit. When religion stifles or discourages science, there must be a different reason.

And some people already believe in the afterlife, or believe in some supernatural presence is guiding us, stifling curiosity.

I don't see that happening at all.

 

[Madsaac]

I think they're both exciting. However I was referring to awe and wonder: curiosity.

Hopefully, it sounds like you're seeing the parallel I was trying to describe? Unless you know and understand all there is to know and understand about biology chemistry physics and the history of life on planet earth, there is quite a lot of phenomena which is beyond your awareness regarding how the human being evolved into what we are today. This is not unlike belief in miracles in some ways. You may not appreciate the comparison. I'm not saying there is equal evidence. I'm saying it's not illogical.

Yes, I think at the end of the day, if you like the idea of miracles, and that's what gets you thinking, that's cool and not illogical.

There's also another factor which I think should be included. Are you rewarded, psychologically by denying miracles and convincing yourself that these sort of ideas are false? The reason I ask is, the objection to the concept of "miracles" is likely more complex than simple logic or lack of evidence. It's easy to overlook how rewarding and satisfying it feels to distance oneself from these notions for a whole host of good reasons. Good reasons. These reasons get bundled together and labeled a logical objection, when in fact there's a lot more happening.

Maybe, I think that you may be doing 'nature/science' an injustice if you believe in miracles. Concepts like nature, our brains and so on are truly amazing without the idea or miracles. However as mentioned, as long as it gets you thinking.

And I understand how good it can feel to distance oneself from the 'real' world, I have always loved sci fi, fantasy stories and the places it can take me.

 

[dybmh]

Maybe, I think that you may be doing 'nature/science' an injustice if you believe in miracles. Concepts like nature, our brains and so on are truly amazing without the idea or miracles. However as mentioned, as long as it gets you thinking.

For most people I know, "miracles" replace "luck" and "coincidences" as explanations for phenomena. Science is not replaced by miracles.

 

[Madsaac]

Why? What do you mean by "illogical". Do you mean logically impossible or is a logical contradiction? And explain why you think it is.

I think that miracles are something that defies the logical world I live in, that's all.

 

[dybmh]

I think that miracles are something that defies the logical world I live in, that's all.

Well, that would be your choice.

For the rest of us, most of us, we define miracles in a different way. So the question becomes, if you are asking one of us a religious question, do you adopt our definition in order to facilitate a conversation, or do you expect us to adopt your definition?

Also, by your definition there are quantum phenomena which would qualify as a miracle. Did you know that?

Giant Molecules Exist in Two Places at Once in Unprecedented Quantum Experiment

The new study demonstrates a bizarre quantum effect at never-before-seen scales

www.scientificamerican.com

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Do you believe in the Holy Spirit? If so, what role in knowing God?

The Holy Spirit is manifested to us by God as the "I Am", the Messengers.

Jesus was Christ ("Annointed One", "Messiah")

Enabling us to know, love and submit to God is the annointed role of all the Messengers.

Regards Tony

 

[firedragon]

I think that miracles are something that defies the logical world I live in, that's all.

In philosophical discourse, Logical matters and physical matters are two very different things. You are referring to the physical world. Not logic. Just google "Physical Possibility" and "Logical Possibility".

 

[firedragon]

Maybe, I think that you may be doing 'nature/science' an injustice if you believe in miracles.

This thread is not about believing in miracles. It's about an argument which is flawed logically and philosophically. You should separate the two.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I think that miracles are something that defies the logical world I live in, that's all.

I think that you mean "defies the physical laws of nature"?
Can you not see the difference between that and contradictory statements?

 

[Andrew Stephen]

"Physical Possibility" and "Logical Possibility".

Peace to all,

To me to logic of the eternal will is, Infinite divine, some say "Holy Spirit" wisdom does not have a chance of failure.
To me the Divine Spirit is the Eternal Law that transforms and transfigures the Body by The Power from within.
To me the power is in the Logic.
The "dynamic" state of the eternal universe can never fail. Choice removed, no internal temptations, and to me it seems like the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil will not exist. To me, it's like only the Tree of Life will be the transformed and now Eternal, immortal, incorruptible, some say "glorified" and transfigured intelligence re-imiaging in the "RI" real intelligence Power of the Will, the "Mind", of God, as united in being.

Peace always,
Stephen

 

[Madsaac]

Yes, two things.

Firstly, I understand there are questions in the natural world that cannot be answered, at the moment, the big one is gravity and quantum mechanics but considering science's infancy and its record for answering these questions, surely it is only a matter of time.

Secondly, what are some examples of miracles that are logical, physical or otherwise?

 

[firedragon]

Secondly, what are some examples of miracles that are logical, physical or otherwise?

It's not just "logical". It's "logically possible".

Please do a search for "logical possibility" and "logical impossibility" and you will understand better.

 

[Andrew Stephen]

Peace to all,

Something is logically impossible if it is contradictory, or against the laws of finite logic of Earth. Thus a round square is a logical impossibility, and it is logically impossible to be a tall man without being tall. But it is not logically impossible to dissolve gold in water.
Logical possibility refers to a logical proposition that cannot be disproved, using the axioms and rules of a given system of finite logic of Earth.

The logical possibility of a proposition will depend upon the system of logic being considered, rather than on the violation of any single rule.

The flawed state of finite logic is choice or internal temptation or "created" "Big Bang" order that manifests fallibility through the flawed spirit of logic through the meet of creation.
Finite logic consists of option, alternative, possibility, possible course of action, solution, answer, or way out.

Infinite logic consists the Transformed and Transfigured, "resurrected" "Restored Eternal" order of manifesting eternally having fulfilled Exodus, the second coming of The Christ in all mankind when He said, “No more of this!”
The logic to me is Jesus, the Person in the Divine Body of God is on Earth conceived with the transforming Divine Spirit Person in the Divine Body of God to then share to all the Person of The Divine Spirit to unite all as one in Body transfigured in Body together with The Divine God, The Father and Jesus, as Glorified.

To me, the "RI" real intelligence in eternity manifests, by the Power of The Divine, some say "Holy" Spirit, re-images the becoming reality.
The New Heaven and Earth, Heaven.

To me, this seems to be the miracle.
The miracle of Malchus and the Roman Soldier's ear. Reattached, by contact of the Host, Jesus restored order to the ear of to the Roman Soldier.
To me the Divine Spirit is the Eternal Law that transforms and transfigures the Body through The Infinite Logical Power from within.

Now some commentators speculate that Jesus healed Malchus in order to spare Peter’s life—such a violent display of rebellion would have meant crucifixion. However, I like to think that Jesus was also considering this servant’s well-being. For didn’t He reach out to us while we were walking away from Him, and work a miracle in our lives, bringing healing and restoration?

So I Fix My Eyes.
"So Malchus was on the wrong side of history—the losing side. However, as he follows orders and joins the group heading to arrest Jesus, he somehow ends up in the front of the pack—not the best place when entering a possible conflict. Thus when Peter takes out his sword and strikes, he swipes off Malchus’ ear. Ouch! Wrong place at the wrong time! But wait…was it really a bad thing? Malchus probably thought so at the time. He was most likely in a lot of pain and worrying about being deformed for life. However, while John doesn’t give us this information, the other gospels tell us that Jesus quickly told Peter, “Enough!” and went to Malchus, touching his ear and healing it. Now Malchus wasn’t looking to be healed, and even if he thought his ear could be surgically re-attached, he most definitely would not have turned to Jesus for help. Yet our loving Savior reached out to him and did the impossible in an instant, bringing healing and restoration."

And one of them struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his right ear. But Jesus answered, “No more of this!” And He touched the man's ear and healed him.

Peace always,
Stephen

 

[Madsaac]

It's not just "logical". It's "logically possible".

Please do a search for "logical possibility" and "logical impossibility" and you will understand better.

Yeah I have, but can you answer my question, please. '....what are some examples of miracles that are logical, physical or otherwise?'

All I said originally is that 'I think that miracles are something that defies the logical world...'

I don't want to know about possibilities.....