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UNRWA fires 12 workers over suspected involvement in the October 7 attacks on Israel

Bthoth

Well-Known Member
Not in Israel.
Nothing is illegal in israel if used against anyone that does not support that apartheid.
I don't believe it is illegal in most of the world, because they sell to the 'legitimate' powers in the Arab world, South America, and even Eastern Europe.
Pegasus was an israeli creation, even if others have copied the model.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I don't believe any of the above arguments are sound; I agree with supporting Ukraine financially and militarily so that it can repel Putin's invasion. My questions were meant to highlight the flaws in the notion that people should give up their land or leave it if they can't defend it on their own. What I believe is that if they can't, other countries should help them to do so, whether by imposing sanctions on the aggressor or providing financial and military aid.

I agree, because if Putin succeeds, many other former Soviet countries would likely be at risk.
In Israel's case, I believe other countries—especially those who have extensive economic ties with it or provide it with significant support, like the US—should put far more pressure on it to adopt a two-state solution and demonstrate more regard for the safety and lives of Palestinian civilians. Various sanctions and cutting off military and economic aid or ties would be a helpful step.

As unpopular as my opinion is, Israel has no choice but to eliminate Hamas or all we will see in the future would be repeat after repeat. However, the "good news" is that Hamas' leadership is located in just one small region in the south and is cornered. Already the heavy bombing has largely been abandoned and now it's more building by building. Hamas is more running than firing rackets.
 

Bthoth

Well-Known Member
These exaggerated generalizations are not helpful.
Apartheid, illegal occupation, ethnic cleansing, inhumane abuse of gaza.

Settler attacks on civilians and al aqsa. Now pegasus being used illegally to tap phones.

Is that a better factual assessment of the impunity that israel has abused?

Bthoth said:
Nothing is illegal in israel if used against anyone that does not support that apartheid.


Oh yea, it's antisemitic to be against israel right? Which is another layering of stupidity that the obtuse use constantly.
 

dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
There is much of that to be sure. Just don't hide behind it. Dismissing every criticism of Israel as antisemitic hatred does Israel no favors.

I don't. Israel / isrealis / jewish people don't get a free ride from me. Criticism is not ignored nor demonized by default. I think post#157 is a good example of giving both sides off the issue without sugar-coating the reasons for the Palestinian anger. - LINK
 

Bthoth

Well-Known Member
I don't. Israel / isrealis / jewish people don't get a free ride from me. Criticism is not ignored nor demonized by default. I think post#157 is a good example of giving both sides off the issue without sugar-coating the reasons for the Palestinian anger. - LINK
Why would you conflate israel with Jewish people? Do you think Jews are that nasty? I dont!

If jews governed israel, there would be no apartheid.
 

libre

In flight
Staff member
Premium Member
Oh yea, it's antisemitic to be against israel right? Which is another layering of stupidity that the obtuse use constantly.
You've liked enough of my posts criticizing Israel to know that's not where I'm coming from.
Sweeping generalizations obfuscate, let us be precise here - this is the same criticism I have made of those targeting UNRWA.
 

Bthoth

Well-Known Member
You've liked enough of my posts criticizing Israel to know that's not where I'm coming from.
Sure but you also like the post that use the trope/slur against me.

I focus my condemnation at israel but you will not find me condemning jews for what israel is and has been doing.
Sweeping generalizations obfuscate, let us be precise here - this is the same criticism I have made of those targeting UNRWA.
OK

Apartheid, illegal occupation, ethnic cleansing, inhumane abuse of gaza.

Settler attacks on civilians and al aqsa. Now pegasus being used illegally to tap phones.

Is that a better factual assessment of the impunity that israel has abused?


Bthoth said:
Nothing is illegal in israel if used against anyone that does not support that apartheid.




Just as I am very clear that the need and pursuit of that mount is beyond just stupid.

I am very specific, clear and concise! But you will side with the apartheid defenders before the honesty assessments.
 

dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
About 2 million people are in peril and barely surviving in gaza.

Here they are... flying kites in rafah one week ago.

Screenshot from 2024-02-14 11-59-43.png


Here's the safe zone in Rafah. Notice that it is separated from the urban area where the fighting is happening. If there is cooperation and compliance, then there is safety. There is also food and water in rafah. Israel is pausing operations *daily* for approx 6 hours to permit the Gazans to seek food, medical aid, resources in the urban areas.

It's not nearly as bad as you are describing. The media thrives on scandal. Stories of the pitiful are short, easy to tell, and keep the reader/viewer returning for more. That's why it is the story that is being told. Media IS a business. They want your eyeballs and your attention. The more accurate nuanced reality is a more difficult story to tell. It's not as emotionally satisfying as presenting angels and demons.

Screenshot from 2024-02-14 12-01-10.png


The first rule in any crisis:

Don't panic.

Screenshot from 2024-02-14 12-12-44.png
 

Bthoth

Well-Known Member
Here they are... flying kites in rafah one week ago.

View attachment 88296

Here's the safe zone in Rafah. Notice that it is separated from the urban area where the fighting is happening. If there is cooperation and compliance, then there is safety. There is also food and water in rafah. Israel is pausing operations *daily* for approx 6 hours to permit the Gazans to seek food, medical aid, resources in the urban areas.

It's not nearly as bad as you are describing. The media thrives on scandal. Stories of the pitiful are short, easy to tell, and keep the reader/viewer returning for more. That's why it is the story that is being told. Media IS a business. They want your eyeballs and your attention. The more accurate nuanced reality is a more difficult story to tell. It's not as emotionally satisfying as presenting angels and demons.

View attachment 88302

The first rule in any crisis:

Don't panic.
So you find one good scenario, where children are playing and completely skip over the atrocity's's's that israel in imposing?

Very strange sense of ethics.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I wonder how many innocent people were killed during WWII, and yet I doubt many people in the west accused the Allies of genocide and war crimes.

Yes, civilian deaths are horrible, but I didn't see too many complaints from some here when it was Israel that was being hit by thousands of rockets.
 

libre

In flight
Staff member
Premium Member
Sure but you also like the post that use the trope/slur against me.
I don't think that you hate Jewish people.
I do think that you negate the Jew, and conclude that the problem of anti-Semitism does not exist where it does in fact exist.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
I think that what will happen and what a sufficient number of people (especially if they are in positions of power) believe should happen are intertwined. If all leaders of countries other than Ukraine refused to aid it financially and militarily because they believed they shouldn't, what would happen, probably a victory for Putin, would be a direct consequence of that decision.

(especially if they are in positions of power)

Sure, like I said, might makes right. Not personal moral values.
What I'm saying is that other countries that can try to stop the massacring and displacement of Gazan civilians should do so, such as by imposing sanctions, instead of telling Gazans to leave their homes and land, especially when some Israeli officials have shown support for "resettlement" of Gaza.

Yes, I understood what you think should happen. Like I said, if you can get the state of Israel to worry about what you think should happen, more power to you. Right now, I don't see that happening though as evidenced via the link you provided.

I think that what I posted earlier covers the above:

Ok, I didn't really see an argument against anything I said though.

In Israel's case, I believe other countries—especially those who have extensive economic ties with it or provide it with significant support, like the US—should put far more pressure on it to adopt a two-state solution and demonstrate more regard for the safety and lives of Palestinian civilians. Various sanctions and cutting off military and economic aid or ties would be a helpful step.

Again, you are saying what you think should happen. Not relevant to what will happen without the might to back it up.

What I suspect will happen (not relevant to what I think should happen either btw) is that Israel will continue in its expressed mission to eradicate Hamas until if feels satisfied it has done so unopposed other than by a world of folks saying they belief Israel should be doing otherwise.

Two months from now, feel free to tell me I was wrong if I turn out to have been wrong.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
(especially if they are in positions of power)
Sure, like I said, might makes right. Not personal moral values.


Yes, I understood what you think should happen. Like I said, if you can get the state of Israel to worry about what you think should happen, more power to you. Right now, I don't see that happening though as evidenced via the link you provided.



Ok, I didn't really see an argument against anything I said though.



Again, you are saying what you think should happen. Not relevant to what will happen without the might to back it up.

What I suspect will happen (not relevant to what I think should happen either btw) is that Israel will continue in its expressed mission to eradicate Hamas until if feels satisfied it has done so unopposed other than by a world of folks saying they belief Israel should be doing otherwise.

Two months from now, feel free to tell me I was wrong if I turn out to have been wrong.

I agree with you that if Israel doesn't face or feel considerable pushback—such as sanctions by other countries and loss of economic and military ties—for its actions, it most likely won't stop what it is doing. That's another reason I would fully support such measures against it.

I don't think that other countries with the most power to impose such pushback will bother to do so to a significant extent, tragically, as most of them have already been complicit in or approving of the IDF's actions, and some have turned a blind eye to said actions while continuing to have economic and military ties with Israel.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
I agree with you that if Israel doesn't face or feel considerable pushback—such as sanctions by other countries and loss of economic and military ties—for its actions, it most likely won't stop what it is doing. That's another reason I would fully support such measures against it.

A two state solution? :thumbsup:

Doesn't seem the powers that be actually want that though.
In the 55 or so years that has been proposed you'd think more progress would have been made if there was actually any willingness for it.
 

Bthoth

Well-Known Member
I wonder how many innocent people were killed during WWII, and yet I doubt many people in the west accused the Allies of genocide and war crimes.
I think it was 6 million and it was the nazis that tried to commit the genocide.

Look up shoah, that atrocity was very specific
Yes, civilian deaths are horrible, but I didn't see too many complaints from some here when it was Israel that was being hit by thousands of rockets.
1000's........ Over a 20 year period perhaps. israel has blown up gaza a few times over that period.

I will bet that more people were harmed by the phosphorus munitions of 2009 war crimes, that hamas rockets over 20 yrs.

But neither atrocity is good nor to be approved of.

Topic is about 12 UNRWA workers being involved on 10/7. Sad part is, as of today, Israel has still not provided the evidence. Apparently the method of gaining that claimed information was done illegally. Basically, israel is in the wrong no matter how it is observed, just like the illegal occupation and apartheid has been wrong over the last 5 decades
 

dybmh

ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
So you find one good scenario, where children are playing and completely skip over the atrocity's's's that israel in imposing?

I'm not skipping over anything. I'm showing you that the children are playing. That a vast majority are surviving. Your over-reaction has been corrected... again.

Very strange sense of ethics.

These are my ethics in this discussion:

Military necessity is best evaluated dispassionately. The simple truth is, if israel does not operate precisely as it is, more innocent people will die. And many of those deaths will not be coming from bombs or collapsing buildings as a result of a personal choice to martyr themselves and martyr their children. They will be killed in the worst of the worst manner. Raped, tortured, burned alive in their homes.

Worst of the worst are the people whom you are supporting by propagating their talking points. Here, let me show you.

In the spoiler at the bottom of this post is a picture of a parent and child which were burned to death. Their remains have been inspected by non-israeli objective journalists and forensic MDs from multiple countries, not just the US, not just the UK.

The first thing to notice are the restraints. Those are the thick metal wires indicated by the red arrows. These restraints are not common. Zip ties, duct tape, are common. They were likely chosen intentionally so that when the victims are burned, the restraints remain intact.

The next thing to notice are the arching of the spines concave towards each other, indicated by the green arrows. This strongly suggests that the two, an adult and a child, were tightly embracing while they were being burned.

This is why forensic experts have concluded these two were very likely burned alive intentionally. There are reports, pictures, confessions from the attack and by those who committed atrocities. The pictures show the evacuation shelters being burned in an effort to "smoke out" the innocent victims so that the attackers can kidnap them. You see, in these kibbutzim ( left wing socialist communes, basically ) the residents know that the Palestinians have been murdering innocent people for several decades. They have "panic rooms", more or less, built into these communities. In order to defeat these emergency bunkers, the terrorists lit them on fire. However, this picture, these two specifically, are different. They were intentionally burned alive.

Beyond this there are many many more INTENTIONAL atrocities against innocent people. The israeli tactics are absolutely NOT intended to harm innocent people. I understand that this deviates from visions, prophecy, or spiritual insight which you claim to have received. But it's not true.

As I've mentioned before I have a friend working at a military base in the south of israel. He told me a story a week ago. The israelis lost an entire team clearing a building of innocent people in Khan Younis because the building needed demolition, and intelligence suggested innocent life needed to be saved. A whole team, 21 individuals, lost their lives trying to save Gazans who will never appreciate it. The base was in shock. Mental health professionals were called up to service those who were struggling with the loss. It is a real tragedy. My friend says it could have been avoided. There were mistakes made. And that, in large part, is what made it so painful.

That is what israel is doing on a daily basis. It's the untold story of young people putting themselves in harm's way. Doing the right thing regardless of public opinion. My friend tells me they know the world will never understand, and, it doesn't matter, but, it does hurt. War is about making choices to do the right thing even if it hurts.

The police investigators and emergency personnel describe what the violent extremists, the ones whom you are helping, did to women and men whose genitals were mutilated. Many victims. The police reported, paraphrasing "they [the terrorists] had a thing for genitals". Examples were shooting women from one side of the breast to the other. Shooting men in their genitals. Removing the breasts with a knife. Is that the "right thing to do" even though "it hurts" and is "unpopular"? What does it accomplish? Raping women and taking hostages? Burning parents with the children? Leaving the remains? Recording video of their crimes and posting it on the internet in real-time?

In real-time. Are you understanding what this means? The terrorists know israel is monitoring their communications. The terrorists are encouraging their foot-soldiers to record and post the atrocities. This is coming from the confessions and body cam video. The terrorists want to terrify. They want to provoke the over-reaction. The want to manipulate the israeli emotions, then, they intend to provoke the over-reaction of sympathy from you and people like you. In part it worked. A few politicians said some awful things. But those who implement policy did not act on those statements. The angry violent genocidal rhetoric was recorded on camera. But the genocide isn't actually taking place.

Posting the content produced a reaction from israel, and continuing to post content is continuing to produce ( trigger ) a reaction from you and people like you who are sympathetic to their cause and sympathetic to their violent deeds. What good comes from this? Anything? What good comes from manipulating your emotions and emotions of the israelis?

The witnesses to these atrocities are varied, scattered across the country. They are not isolated events. Those whom you are supporting, by speaking on their behalf, echoing their slogans, use the ideas of genocide, apartheid, oppression, to incite worst of the worst crimes against innocent people. It's not "resistance". It's breeding human-monsters. Your participation in this is unethical from my point of view. Understandable, but, it's still wrong. Watching your over-reactions is teaching me precisely what I don't want to do and who I don't want to be.

My ethics are to not be like you, and not be like them, because I am not like you and I am not like them. I intend to approach these subjects dispassionately. I intend to always probe deeply and in detail on a case by case basis. I intend to avoid rushing to judgment. I reject drawing conclusions based on headlines, which is what I see you doing.

And most important, I adapt. I assimilate new information and I apologize and correct myself if I am wrong. I am not perfect. I am not a prophet. I am not receiving divine revelations. That means I am not emotionally bound to confirming my own beliefs. Being wrong does not compromise my identity. Those are my ethics.

Here's the picture of the ones who were burned alive by the monsters you are supporting.

Screenshot_20240214_134214.jpg
 
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Bthoth

Well-Known Member
I don't think that you hate Jewish people.
Persons. A Jew is an individual. Each are responsible for their own actions.
I do think that you negate the Jew,
Quite the opposite. I honor the Jew by the integrity of the culture, religion and observance of personal responsibility.
and conclude that the problem of anti-Semitism does not exist where it does in fact exist.
I know that many use the Jew term and claim that 'Jews are responsible' for about everything.

I know palestinians here in town, that still use that stupidity and whether in front of their employers or family, i will correct them that 'Jew' is not the problem and specifically ask each to remove that trope from their vocabulary.

I defend more Jews than israelis do, almost every day of my life. Israel has caused more damage to Jews than help but the ignorant Do not actually take into account what is wrong with being allowed impunity.
 
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