UNRWA fires 12 workers over suspected involvement in the October 7 attacks on Israel

[Debater Slayer]

Because the "genocidal monsters" ain't going anywhere.

You can express your angst all you want but that's not going to stop people from being killed.
In this world, might makes right regardless of you moral particulars.

I'm not saying the Jews are morally right. Just that this is the only viable solution I see given the current political situation.

The Jews have already said when the will stop the attacks and that's not going to be for another couple of months best case and I don't see anybody else going to be stopping them. So practical solution for the Palestinians, move them to a friendlier neighborhood.

IMO, one can only possess land they can protect. If you can't protect your land yourself then you have to compromise with those that can.

Two questions regarding the above statements:

1) Should Ukrainians also be moved out of Ukraine due to Putin's invasion, or should other countries pressure Russia to stop the war and coexist peacefully with its neighbor?

2) If Ukraine can't repel Russian annexation of its land by itself, should it compromise with Putin, or should other countries help it to defend its land, as many countries are currently doing?

 

[Laniakea]

They have enuf time to suppress free speech
for Palestinian advocates, & Israel's critics.
And to travel to Israel to aid in the "war" effort.
And to send money to Israel for the "war" effort.
And to foment islamophobia.
And to lobby for more bombs to drop on Palestinians.
They sure are busy.

Apparently too busy to imitate those who stand in the middle of highways during rush hour, or to walk into a church with an AR15 and attempt a mass shooting after pretending to be a man (when they were actually a woman, who even brought her own child to watch her work).

 

[Laniakea]

Tis no fantasy that Israel's policy of brutal oppression
over 70+ years has failed to bring any peace.
They keep doing the same thing...over & over again,
always expecting a different result.

Considering the type of people they're trying to make peace with, it's no wonder.

 

[metis]

How can the Ukrainians compromise with Putin?

 

[Nakosis]

Two questions regarding the above statements:

1) Should Ukrainians also be moved out of Ukraine due to Putin's invasion, or should other countries pressure Russia to stop the war and coexist peacefully with its neighbor?

Many have been moved out. Some 6 million. Most of who went to the EU. If the rest of the world can influence Putin to stop, more power to them but it remains a matter of might making right. Ukraine has only managed to hold onto its land with the military support of other countries.

You're asking me what should happen vs what will happen. Maybe I think we (countries) should stay out of each others business and all get along but the world cares little about what I think should happen.

2) If Ukraine can't repel Russian annexation of its land by itself, should it compromise with Putin, or should other countries help it to defend its land, as many countries are currently doing?

If you can convince other countries to allow you to keep your land or support your protection of it, that is part of consolidating of or compromising with might. If you can do that then you get to keep your land.

This is what NATO is about. Consolidating/compromising might so you can protect your lands. You can only own it as long as you can protect is. However you go about it. There is nothing "sacred" about any country's lands except so far as they can protect it.

 

[Nakosis]

....unless Israel ends apartheid, torture, group
punishment, murder, land theft, & human rights
violation. But Israel has made it clear that this
will continue.

Israel has made many offers of land for peace which have been refused.
If you don't either compromise with might(folks who can kick your ***) or consolidate your own might to protect your land, what do you expect would happen.

Egypt may give lip service to a Palestinian state but without providing military might to protect the "state" of Palestine it remains nothing but lip service. If the USA loses its military prowess it will likely not continue to be the USA for long.

In my view "rights" don't exist except for those you can enforce that includes the right to possess land.

 

[dybmh]

Israel was not only founded on purchased land; as the excerpt highlights, about 700,000 Palestinians were either expelled or fled from their homes, and Zionist militias destroyed hundreds of Palestinian villages.

You are yet again omitting the reason for the Nakbah. Palestinian propaganda. False stories about the israelis compelled the Palestinians to flee.

I pointed this out to you several times. Didn't I? Am I remembering wrong? Are you intentionally omitting this important detail? The Palestinian leaders LIED. A Palestinian journalist ( now jordanian diplomat ) confessed to the false propaganda. He says it's the biggest mistake they made during the war, LYING about the israelis.

Further, you have omitted the SURRENDER of Palestinian territory in 1949 because they started a war and LOST. They, the Palestinians STARTED a war and LOST. I'm repeating because I don't understand why you are omitting these details?

The vast majority of the expulsions were a CONSEQUENCE OF STARTING A WAR AND LOSING. If they did not start the war, there never would have been a Nakbah.

 

[dybmh]

Zionist militias destroyed hundreds of Palestinian villages.

Those villages were included in the 1949 armistice agreements. They were surrendered to israel by the Palestinians.

 

[dybmh]

Should Ukrainians also be moved out of Ukraine due to Putin's invasion

Apples/Oranges. Did the Ukrainians sell their land, receive the payment then attack the new owner?

What a ridiculous analogy. Where did you get this idea from?

The Palestinians sold the land, received the money, then attack. They start wars, lose, cry about it to get sympathy, then start more wars, lose, cry about it for sympathy, play the victim card, start more wars, lose, play the victim, over and over and over again.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Those villages were included in the 1949 armistice agreements. They were surrendered to israel by the Palestinians.

Could you provide a reference to this effect?

 

[Revoltingest]

Israel has made many offers of land for peace which have been refused.

Offers made that fail to address wants & problems will fail.
Note also that Israel has rejected entreaties from the other side.
And then continued with apartheid, land theft, & human rights
violations.

In my view "rights" don't exist except for those you can enforce that includes the right to possess land.

That's the traditional Russian & Mongol view,
ie, people don't deserve what we can take from them.
I disagree with that value.

 

[dybmh]

Could you provide a reference to this effect?

Sure. The story of Sheik Yassin's birth village is a good example. Wikipedia lists the village of his birth. Wikipedia also lists that his village was surrendered in the 1949 armistice agreements. The village was destroyed after it was surrendered. This is a good example because the story that is told about the late Sheik Yassin, the founder of Hamas, is that his home was stolen by the israelis. It's probably the story that he was told. It's not true, but, that's the story which he believed. It's not his fault that he believed the story. The alternative is that his his cultural heritage is a people who attacked the "infidels", lost, and surrendered.

Ashkelon - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Ahmed Yassin - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Nakosis]

Offers made that fail to address wants & problems will fail.
Note also that Israel has rejected entreaties from the other side.
And then continued with apartheid, land theft, & human rights
violations.

Another reason I doubt any diplomatic solution is feasible.

That's the traditional Russian & Mongol view,
ie, people don't deserve what we can take from them.
I disagree with that value.

Your agreement is not required. Neither is mine.
It is not a value to be accepted or rejected. It is simply how the world works.
Wanting it to be otherwise doesn't change the fact of how things work.

I don't know of a case to be made for this not to be true.

 

[Revoltingest]

Your agreement is not required.

Really?
Well, it should be.

It is not a value to be accepted or rejected. It is simply how the world works.
Wanting it to be otherwise doesn't change the fact of how things work.

Of course, we can still recognize reality,
& advocate that it be different...better.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Sure. The story of Sheik Yassin's birth village is a good example. Wikipedia lists the village of his birth. Wikipedia also lists that his village was surrendered in the 1949 armistice agreements. The village was destroyed after it was surrendered. This is a good example because the story that is told about the late Sheik Yassin, the founder of Hamas, is that his home was stolen by the israelis. It's probably the story that he was told. It's not true, but, that's the story which he believed. It's not his fault that he believed the story. The alternative is that his his cultural heritage is a people who attacked the "infidels", lost, and surrendered.

View attachment 88268

View attachment 88274


View attachment 88270

Ashkelon - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Ahmed Yassin - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Where does it say they sold the land and were paid for it? It also doesn't say the land was "surrendered", but that it was simply "granted" by the armistice. Looking at your link, it certainly doesn't seem like the Palestinians voluntarily surrendered the land, nor were paid for it, but we're forcibly detained and then relocated.

From your first link:
Majdal was occupied by the Egyptian army in the early stages of the 1948 war, along with the rest of the Gaza region that had been allocated to the Arab State in the United Nations plan. Over the next few months, the town was subjected to Israeli air-raids and shelling.[4] All but about 1,000 of the town's residents were forced to leave by the time it was captured by Israeli forces as a sequel to Operation Yoav on 4 November 1948.[4] General Yigal Allon ordered the expulsion of the remaining Palestinians but the local commanders did not do so and the Arab population soon recovered to more than 2,500 due mostly to refugees slipping back and also due to the transfer of Palestinians from nearby villages.[4][8] Most of them were elderly, women, or children.[8] During the next year or so, the Palestinians were held in a confined area surrounded by barbed wire, which became commonly known as the "ghetto".[6][8][22] Moshe Dayan and Prime Minister David Ben-Gurion were in favor of expulsion, while Mapam and the Israeli labor union Histadrut objected.[4] The government offered the Palestinians positive inducements to leave, including a favorable currency exchange, but also caused panic through night-time raids.[4] The first group was deported to the Gaza Strip by truck on 17 August 1950 after an expulsion order had been served.[23] The deportation was approved by Ben-Gurion and Dayan over the objections of Pinhas Lavon, secretary-general of the Histadrut, who envisioned the town as a productive example of equal opportunity.[24] By October 1950, twenty Palestinian families remained, most of whom later moved to Lydda or Gaza.[4] According to Israeli records, in total 2,333 Palestinians were transferred to the Gaza Strip, 60 to Jordan, 302 to other towns in Israel, and a small number remained in Ashkelon.[8]

 

[Revoltingest]

Where does it say they sold the land and were paid for it?

The Nakba never happened....so they say.
(He should go fix that Wikipedia article, eh.)

 

[Nakosis]

Sure. The story of Sheik Yassin's birth village is a good example. Wikipedia lists the village of his birth. Wikipedia also lists that his village was surrendered in the 1949 armistice agreements. The village was destroyed after it was surrendered. This is a good example because the story that is told about the late Sheik Yassin, the founder of Hamas, is that his home was stolen by the israelis. It's probably the story that he was told. It's not true, but, that's the story which he believed. It's not his ffault that he believed the story. The alternative is that his his cultural heritage is a people who attacked the "infidels", lost, and surrendered.

View attachment 88268

View attachment 88269


View attachment 88270

Ashkelon - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Ahmed Yassin - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Actually I'm more interested in the recent acquisition of land via the settlements. Is Israel offering some moral justification for this?
What I've read is that the state of Israel has never had fixed boundaries.

 

[Nakosis]

Really?
Well, it should be.

Of course, we can still recognize reality,
& advocate that it be different...better.

Ok, but whatever you advocate for will have to be enforced.

I legally "own" land but that is enforced by the US government. Without that enforcement, I'd be on my own to defend the boundaries of my property as long as I have the might to do so.

Whatever we agree is only as good as our ability to enforce it.

 

[dybmh]

Where does it say they sold the land and were paid for it?

You asked about the 1949 armistice agreement. The purchase of land occurred prior to the war. There's pictures and transfers of deeds of property.

 

[Revoltingest]

Ok, but whatever you advocate for will have to be enforced.

I legally "own" land but that is enforced by the US government. Without that enforcement, I'd be on my own to defend the boundaries of my property as long as I have the might to do so.

Whatever we agree is only as good as our ability to enforce it.

No real argument here.
This is obvious..
Are you making some point about the
Israel v Palestinian conflict that I'm missing?