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UNRWA fires 12 workers over suspected involvement in the October 7 attacks on Israel

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
That is their homeland.

They sold part of their homeland to jewish immigrants in the late 1800s and early 1900s. They surrendered another large part of their homeland in the armistice agreements of 1949. They are continuing to lose the remaining parts of their homeland by breaking these and other peace treaties.

They're still selling their land to jewish immigrants. The eviction of Palestinians from their homes in east Jerusalem in 2020 was the result of the owner of the homes that were being *rented* by Palestinians being sold to jewish developers.

The founder of Hamas, Sheik Ahmed Yassin, argues that he would wage war against his own brother if his brother steals his home. However, the Sheik's home was not stolen. It was surrendered in the 1949 armistice agreements.

Why should they leave

First, they can't leave because no other country wants them. They are a population embedded with violent extremists who have been systematically eliminating moderates either by killing them or by indoctrinating the children from the UNRWA schools. The moderate governments of Jordan, Egypt certainly don't want them. The others are fully aware that the Palestinians as they are now would bring destabilizing hostile elements into their countries.

Second, the majority of israelis simply want them to stop attacking. That's it. They're not being told to leave. Israel is trying to create safe spaces from them. Palestinians consistently attack. Land has been acquired throughout the repeated and consistent military victory by israel. The acquisition was important not only to setup secure borders for itself, but also because the land has been used as currency for negotiating peace with its neighbors. For the Palestinians, Gaza was returned to them in 2005. They were granted sovereignty. The West Bank was also in the process of being returned to the Palestinian people, but, that has been interrupted by ... drumroll ... Palestinian violence culminating in the 2nd intifada.

Why should they leave

If they are renters, and the land owner sells the land, then the renter should leave if that is what the new owner desires.

That's where the conflict began in the early 1800s. The first attack occurred in 1886, Petach Tikvah. It's a long story, but, approx. 3400 acres of what was then referred to as Palestine was purchased by jewish immigrants. The jewish immigrants didn't need the entire parcel at first.., so, they permitted the previous tenants to stay for two years. After sukkot ( the harvest season ) of the beginning of the third year the jewish immigrants gave the Arab renters an eviction notice, more or less. ( They asked them to leave ). The Arabs refused invoking a local custom. The jewish immigrants deferred to the local custom. They, the jewish immigrants, chose to make peace with their neighbors. The Arabs did not.

A jewish immigrant was riding a horse and crossed into the Arab's land. The Arabs attacked and stole the jewish immigrant's horse. Then, a little while later, a group of the Arab's donkeys wandered into the jewish immigrants' fields and were grazing there. The jewish immigrants took 7 of those donkeys to compensate for the stolen horse.

The Arabs gathered approx. 200 people and attacked the jewish immigrants. They vandalized their property and physically beat the immigrants. No one was killed, and eventually a truce was negotiated by the authorities between the two parties. They jewish immigrants had deferred to the local Arab customs, but, this was not acceptable to the indigenous people. These jewish immigrants had risen above the Arabs by legally purchasing the land and gaining power over them. The reaction to this by many was, and still is: violence. This was codified in the Hamas charter in 1988 and reaffirmed in the 2017 update:

"Resistance and jihad for the liberation of Palestine will remain a legitimate right, a duty and an honour for all the sons and daughters of our people and our Ummah."​
Of course, Hamas ignores that the land they are referring to was purchased legally and/or surrendered as part of armistice agreements. They reject any and all peace agreements which are cooperative with the jewish people who purchased land legally because we are not part of the their "Ummah" ( in general, a religious community in arabic ).

The attack on Petach Tikvah was witnessed and documented by two individuals in hebrew in the books: "פתח-תקוה אם המושבות" and "זיכרונות של חנה לאה סגל" published by the Frumkin Foundation. The attack is also documented by Dr. Ian Black ( pro-Palestinian ) journalist, and Dr. Gerson Shafir ( israeli moderate ). That's 4 sources confirming the event. It's cause, consequences, and resolution was documented by the courts and reported in the local newspapers.

It's significant because the war that is ongoing between israel and the violent extremists is still a matter of the Arabic Islamic sovereignty. Jewish purchase of land and thriving there undermines the Arab Islamic vision/dream of their own complete sovereignty of that region. Again from the Hamas 2017 updated charter:
"There is no alternative to a fully sovereign Palestinian State on the entire national Palestinian soil, with Jerusalem as its capital."​

Notice: Entire. And:
"Jerusalem is the capital of Palestine. Its religious, historic and civilisational status is fundamental to the Arabs, Muslims and the world at large. Its Islamic and Christian holy places belong exclusively to the Palestinian people and to the Arab and Islamic Ummah. Not one stone of Jerusalem can be surrendered or relinquished. The measures undertaken by the occupiers in Jerusalem, such as Judaisation, settlement building, and establishing facts on the ground are fundamentally null and void.​
The blessed al-Aqsa Mosque belongs exclusively to our people and our Ummah, and the occupation has no right to it whatsoever. The occupation’s plots, measures and attempts to judaize al-Aqsa and divide it are null, void and illegitimate."​
Notice the conviction against "Judaization". There cannot be any sharing. Not a single stone can be shared. That means the western wall which is an artifact proving the existence of Jerusalem as the capital of a jewish nation pre-dating Islam by over 1000 years is not to be shared. Hamas and the violent extremists oppose any cooperation and sharing. Their dignity requires supremacy. Nothing less is acceptable.

The jewish people have a history of working within the system to establish peace with their neighbors and cooperate with the Arabs who live there. The violent extremists label this "Judaization". But really, all it means is that jewish people are skilled at negotiating power structures to advance our objectives. There is nothing immoral or unethical about this. A great deal of this "Judaization", negotiating power structures, involves compromise. The violent extremists will never compromise. Judaization = compromise.

TLDR?

The first step in establishing peace in the region is compromise. That will include the "leaving", departure ,from land which was legally purchased past and present. That will require the "leaving", departure, from land that was surrendered during failed military operations, war, waged against israel. That will require enforcing the peace treaties and territorial boundaries that are agreed by the representatives of both parties. Israel is doing this. The violent extremists are not.
 
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libre

Skylark
Staff member
Premium Member
A dossier was given to the UK press. That is not the entire correspondence between israel and your government. It is the only information which is permitted to be released to the public.
I'm Canadian.

As per the article : "Government sources tell CBC that Israel still has not shared evidence with Canada to substantiate its claim that 12 employees of UNRWA were involved in some capacity in the October 7 attack on Israel by Hamas and the affiliated group Islamic Jihad."

The assumption that there is no evidence based on this is foolish.
The Canadian government did make it's decision to block funding to UNRWA based on zero evidence.
I don't believe that being concerned about blind faith in Israeli intelligence during wartime is foolish.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
You're promoting literal ethnic cleansing there. That is their homeland. Why should they leave and not the genocidal monsters putting them in that situation?

Because the "genocidal monsters" ain't going anywhere.

You can express your angst all you want but that's not going to stop people from being killed.
In this world, might makes right regardless of you moral particulars.

I'm not saying the Jews are morally right. Just that this is the only viable solution I see given the current political situation.

The Jews have already said when the will stop the attacks and that's not going to be for another couple of months best case and I don't see anybody else going to be stopping them. So practical solution for the Palestinians, move them to a friendlier neighborhood.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Because the "genocidal monsters" ain't going anywhere.

You can express your angst all you want but that's not going to stop people from being killed.
In this world, might makes right regardless of you moral particulars.

I'm not saying the Jews are morally right. Just that this is the only viable solution I see given the current political situation.

The Jews have already said when the will stop the attacks and that's not going to be for another couple of months best case and I don't see anybody else going to be stopping them. So practical solution for the Palestinians, move them to a friendlier neighborhood.

Yep. If Hamas stop fighting and surrenders, the war will be over; but if Israel stops fighting and surrenders, more Israelis would be massacred.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Yep. If Hamas stop fighting and surrenders, the war will be over; but if Israel stops fighting and surrenders, more Israelis would be massacred.
....unless Israel ends apartheid, torture, group
punishment, murder, land theft, & human rights
violation. But Israel has made it clear that this
will continue.
 

Laniakea

Not of this world
Israel works on opinion and what is the best way to keep the hate on fire.

If israel had any inside intelligence, they would have stopped the attack.

Simply put, how can anyone consider israel credible?

The popularity is so low, that even Jews are against israel here in the USA.
Jews in the USA are too busy having to defend themselves against pro-palestine wackos within universities that are led by DEI hires who think calling for their genocide might be acceptable.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Jews in the USA are too busy having to defend themselves against pro-palestine wackos within universities that are led by DEI hires who think calling for their genocide might be acceptable.
They have enuf time to suppress free speech
for Palestinian advocates, & Israel's critics.
And to travel to Israel to aid in the "war" effort.
And to send money to Israel for the "war" effort.
And to foment islamophobia.
And to lobby for more bombs to drop on Palestinians.
They sure are busy.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
The sooner you quit promoting that fantasy, the better.
Tis no fantasy that Israel's policy of brutal oppression
over 70+ years has failed to bring any peace.
They keep doing the same thing...over & over again,
always expecting a different result.
 

Bthoth

Well-Known Member
How? By doing the hard work of considering "who, what, when/where, how, and why" on a case by case basis.
The case by case homework, exposes just how obnoxious israel is with crazy arrogance.

The why, is easy.... the apartheid is oppressing millions of people and the rogue are now the terrorist, that israel cannot stop.

Heck, israel is now having the settlers sanctioned which is already in writing. WHY does israel NOT stop them bigots from attacking civilians?
When I do that, israel is light-years beyond the anti-israel/anti-jewish conglomerate in terms of credibility and morality.
Ethnic cleansing of palestine is morally wrong. And the supporters to that atrocity have no credibility.. either.

The Jews have been against israel for decades and they know personally just how rude the fringe zionist hypocrites are.

if israel was pursuing peace, they would police their own and stop them from attacking palestinians.
Also, I do not rush to judgement.
Sure you do and have..... You still have not admitted that using phosphorus munitions on the civilians of gaza, was morally and legally wrong.


Just like, i mentioned the problem of the current war was that the settlers had been attacking palestinians and the al aqsa before 10/7 even occurred.


How can any honest soul, that believes a god supports them actually lie to others and themselves?
 

Bthoth

Well-Known Member
Jews in the USA are too busy having to defend themselves against pro-palestine wackos within universities that are led by DEI hires who think calling for their genocide might be acceptable.

Now, you can see the damage that israel has done to Jews and the people of Judaism. It's so bad, that innocent people are being condemned for what israel is and has been doing.

Israel Weaponizes Us…': Jews In Europe Protest Against IDF Killing  Civilians In Gaza | Watch - YouTube

Anti-Zionist Jews protest Israel's settlement plan - Anadolu Ajansı



I will side with the Jews over israel, every day of the week
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
I'm Canadian.

I know.

Your quote below is referring to the UK.

Screenshot_20240212_155131.jpg


The article posted, however, says the dossier was given to the UK press. That is a lot different than implying the UK rec'd only a dossier and nothing else.

As per the article : "Government sources tell CBC that Israel still has not shared evidence with Canada to substantiate its claim that 12 employees of UNRWA were involved in some capacity in the October 7 attack on Israel by Hamas and the affiliated group Islamic Jihad."

Unnamed government sources.

The Canadian government did make it's decision to block funding to UNRWA based on zero evidence.
I don't believe that being concerned about blind faith in Israeli intelligence during wartime is foolish.

Zero evidence is an assumption. The unnamed government sources might not be privileged to see the evidence.

There's more evidence being released. Hopefully I'll have time to post it tomorrow.
 
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libre

Skylark
Staff member
Premium Member
The article posted, however, says the dossier was given to the UK press. That is a lot different than implying the UK rec'd only a dossier and nothing else.
Touche. I should have been more specific.
Zero evidence is an assumption. The unnamed government sources might not be privileged to see the evidence.
It could be true that evidence has been handed to Canadian intelligence at a higher level of secrecy, but at the moment we don't really have any cause to believe such. I am aware of no Israeli or Canadian official who has suggested any such evidence had been provided, so in this circumstance I think it is reasonable for the Canadian public to be concerned about this.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
but at the moment we don't really have any cause to believe such.

Here is an article with specific examples of evidence in support off israel's allegations. It's in a different dossier than the allegations. Essentially this means that, among the evidence is israeli intelligence scooping up the cellphone traffic. They have the GPS data of the UNRWA employees in the location of the events that occurred on Oct. 7th along with pictures they had taken. This is the same evidence that is used to implicate the Jan. 6th rioters here in the US. Here in the US, the FBI has their phone's GPS data and pictures which the rioters took of themself participating in the riot. That evidence is producing convictions in our federal court system. It's good strong evidence.

And that's why the tunnels under the UNRWA headquarters had a server with an isolated LAN. The violent extremists know that israel has this capability. However there's no reason for israel to publicize it.

^^ WSJ article ^^
"Intelligence Reveals Details of U.N. Agency Staff’s Links to Oct. 7 Attack"

It's important to note: it doesn't matter how much evidence is brought forward. The anti-israel conglomerate will not believe any of it. Because, it's true that any report of GPS data can be forged, any digital photo or video can be manipulated, and because the deniers will deny everything, at this point, the effort that goes into declassification and releasing the information to the public is simply not justified. There's no good reason for israel to advertise how deeply and completely they are monitoring the signals produced by the internet transceivers we are all carrying 24/7.
 
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Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Yep. If Hamas stop fighting and surrenders, the war will be over; but if Israel stops fighting and surrenders, more Israelis would be massacred.

The only catalyst for the existence of Hamas is the destruction of Israel, unless I understand it wrong.
That being the case, I see little chance for any cessation of Hamas' main purpose for being.

Hamas' charter is a Palestinian state from the river to the sea, which is a de-facto declaration of war on Israel.

I suppose you can that Israel shouldn't be there in the first place but they are there. IMO, one can only possess land they can protect. If you can't protect your land yourself then you have to compromise with those that can.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
They sold part of their homeland to jewish immigrants in the late 1800s and early 1900s. They surrendered another large part of their homeland in the armistice agreements of 1949. They are continuing to lose the remaining parts of their homeland by breaking these and other peace treaties.

They're still selling their land to jewish immigrants. The eviction of Palestinians from their homes in east Jerusalem in 2020 was the result of the owner of the homes that were being *rented* by Palestinians being sold to jewish developers.

So Palestinians who "owned" the land other Palestinians lived on sold the land to Jewish developers?
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
So Palestinians who "owned" the land other Palestinians lived on sold the land to Jewish developers?

Yes. However, the developers used a Palestinian realtor ( more or less ) to coordinate the sale. This shielded the buyers from knowing they were selling to israelis. The developers used an obscure business name to further conceal their identity.

And.

The property value for land in east Jerusalem is already a premium. These land sales often go far above and beyond the market value.

This produces a sort of perfect storm where the previous tenants and the previous owners feel cheated and robbed and deceived, but, it's a perfectly legal purchase of property. Instead of the previous owner taking responsibility, they were not suspicious of the "too-good-to-be-true", caveat emptor, they blame the evil-jews who tricked them.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Yes. However, the developers used a Palestinian realtor ( more or less ) to coordinate the sale. This shielded the buyers from knowing they were selling to israelis. The developers used an obscure business name to further conceal their identity.

And.

The property value for land in east Jerusalem is already a premium. These land sales often go far above and beyond the market value.

This produces a sort of perfect storm where the previous tenants and the previous owners feel cheated and robbed and deceived, but, it's a perfectly legal purchase of property. Instead of the previous owner taking responsibility, they were not suspicious of the "too-good-to-be-true", caveat emptor, they blame the evil-jews who tricked them.

What about the Israeli government declaring Palestinian land as being state owned.
That's is the majority of what I read, along with this being illegal according to international law.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
What about the Israeli government declaring Palestinian land as being state owned.
That's is the majority of what I read, along with this being illegal according to international law.

I think that's specific sections ( the majority ) of West Bank property. This is East Jerusalem. The situation in the West Bank is complicated because the Palestinian broke their side of the Oslo II accords which returned that territory to the PA ( Palestinian Authority ). Regarding international law, that also gets complicated.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
So Palestinians who "owned" the land other Palestinians lived on sold the land to Jewish developers?

I think this is relevant here:

The Tantura families’ committee and Adalah hope that the Forensic Architecture investigation will lead to more inquiries into the events of 1948, which Palestinians call the Nakba, or catastrophe. Approximately 700,000 people – about half the population – were expelled or fled from their homes in the war surrounding the creation of the Israeli state, and about 500 villages destroyed.

Forensic Architecture said the Tantura project is the first of a series of visual investigations the organisation is conducting into reported massacres related to the Nakba.


Israel was not only founded on purchased land; as the excerpt highlights, about 700,000 Palestinians were either expelled or fled from their homes, and Zionist militias destroyed hundreds of Palestinian villages.
 
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