UPenn transgender swimmer continues dominant season with more record-breaking wins

[Revoltingest]

What I said is true about a subset of people who claim that the participation of trans women in women's sports isn't open to discussion and that sports organizations shouldn't recognize trans people's identities. In the case of certain people, it's neither a stereotype nor a demonization; it's a mere statement of fact.

I can think of many "statements of fact" about posters
involved in this discussion. Some are most unflattering,
& relate to their motives & knowledge of the issues.
But to air them would be unproductive & divisive...counter
to the spirit of the forum.
Let it be about the issues, not looking down upon the other.

 

[Leahpolitan_icecream]

What women had, man taketh away. I still don't think it its right.
"
Fury as transgender UPenn swimmer, 22, who used to compete as a man smashes TWO US women's records in weekend competition and finishes one race 38 seconds ahead of her nearest rival

• Lia Thomas, 22, smashed two U.S. swimming records at an Akron, Ohio contest
• Thomas won the 1,650 freestyle in a record time of 15:59.71 beating her closest rival Anna Sofia Kalandaze by 38 seconds
• She left rivals floundering in a 500 freestyle beating them by 14 seconds
• Last month she competed in a women's swimming event between Princeton and Cornell and has regularly broken records as part of UPenn's team
• Thomas previously competed for the school's men's team for three years before joining the women's team. Her last men's competition was in November 2019
• Some have voiced their anger at her swimming success, claiming it to be 'unfair,' and many refused to refer to her as a woman
• NCAA rules dictate any trans female athlete can take part in women's events if they have completed a year of testosterone suppression treatment

Story here..
https://www-dailymail-co-uk.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10282301/amp/Transgender-UPenn-swimmer-Lia-Thomas-smashes-records-weekend-meets-14-SECONDS-ahead-rival.html?amp_js_v=a6&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQKKAFQArABIIACAw==#aoh=16391605990953&referrer=https://www.google.com&amp_tf=From %1$s&ampshare=https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10282301/Transgender-UPenn-swimmer-Lia-Thomas-smashes-records-weekend-meets-14-SECONDS-ahead-rival.html

Sometimes I feel like having an extreme opinion about these things

 

[Debater Slayer]

I can think of many "statements of fact" about posters
involved in this discussion. Some are most unflattering,
& relate to their motives & knowledge of the issues.
But to air them would be unproductive & divisive...counter
to the spirit of the forum.
Let it be about the issues, not looking down upon the other.

I didn't have any posters in mind; I'm talking generally, not about the forum.

I feel like you've inferred a few things from my post that I didn't intend or imply, so asking for clarification is probably more useful here than responding based on these inferences.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

They have a right. But ultimately it’s like men speaking on issues of feminism. Usually it’s seen more as a support issue. Men can speak up on such issues. But ultimately women are deferred to since you know, many issues are female specific. And men speaking on them is seen as intrusive. Not always but things relating to childbirth for instance. A man can certainly offer a sympathetic voice but no offence y’all don’t know what it’s like. So let the women folk speak on it.

In regards to this particular person, if she passed all the regular tests, then she doesn’t have a natural advantage. No more than a cis woman having higher than regular testosterone levels would anyway. Which does occur naturally in our species.
The transition process does tend to strip away a lot of the so called issues of superiority that I see some folk claim. I therefore defer to sports experts rather than folk who claim to speak out for “concern” for women. I often find there’s an ulterior motive. I’m not saying that’s the case for you, of course. I’ve just been “burned” too many times to not be a little suspicious and on the defensive.

People can have an opinion on anything they please. Certainly women think they are entitled to their opinions on men and masculinity. But I digress.

As for advantages, hormones won't change your bone structure, having larger heart and lungs or muscle memory, among other things, I'm sure. She'll always have some sort of advantage over a cis woman. The question is how to respond in a way that is fair.

 

[Revoltingest]

I didn't have any posters in mind; I'm talking generally, not about the forum.

I feel like you've inferred a few things from my post that I didn't intend or imply, so asking for clarification is probably more useful here than responding based on these inferences.

If you're not commenting about any posters in the
discussion, then why criticize people who are
discussing the issue?
Again, what purpose is advanced by finding a
group to demonize?

 

[Debater Slayer]

If you're not commenting about any posters in the
discussion, then why criticize people who are
discussing the issue?

I've already covered this in post #40. Sometimes it's useful to recognize when someone is exploiting a legitimate issue or concern to advance some agenda. Not everyone has similar motives, and knowing this can be important when analyzing someone's position on a given issue.

Again, what purpose is advanced by finding a
group to demonize?

Which group? A specific subset of ideological extremists? That's the only group I mentioned.

I think "demonize" is a bit loaded for the reasons I clarified in post #40. It's not demonization to accurately point out specific problematic actions or inconsistency; one would need to exaggerate these issues in order to demonize anyone, which is not the case here.

 

[Revoltingest]

I've already covered this in post #40. Sometimes it's useful to recognize when someone is exploiting a legitimate issue or concern to advance some agenda. Not everyone has similar motives, and knowing this can be important when analyzing someone's position on a given issue.

Which group? A specific subset of ideological extremists? That's the only group I mentioned.

I think "demonize" is a bit loaded for the reasons I clarified in post #40. It's not demonization to accurately point out specific problematic actions or inconsistency; one would need to exaggerate these issues in order to demonize anyone, which is not the case here.

I've nothing to add.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

It's workable. But the "separate but
equal" thing would never fly these days.

I wonder if it would be possible to focus on skill levels rather than gender, kind of like weight classes in boxing.

 

[Revoltingest]

I wonder if it would be possible to focus on skill levels rather than gender, kind of like weight classes in boxing.

There'd still be the potential for a trans
woman to dominate, thereby creating
inequity with top cis female athletes.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

There'd still be the potential for a trans
woman to dominate, thereby creating
inequity with top cis female athletes.

What I meant is, ignore gender and focus on athletes competing according to their skill level. So you may have different genders competing together because their abilities are comparable.

 

[Revoltingest]

What I meant is, ignore gender and focus on athletes competing according to their skill level. So you may have different genders competing together because their abilities are comparable.

Cis women have long liked having their own category.
I'm sure they won't give it up.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

Cis women have long liked having their own category.
I'm sure they won't give it up.

Hm...good poing. But would that be because of a history where they were excluded from sports based on gender?

 

[Revoltingest]

Hm...good poing. But would that be because of a history where they were excluded from sports based on gender?

I see a history that if competing with men,
they'd generally never be winners.
Some women want to win.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

I see a history that if competing with men,
they'd generally never be winners.
Some women want to win.

Basing competition around skill level would solve that. ;-)

Edited to add: It would also avoid gender discrimination so everyone will be able to complete.

 

[Revoltingest]

Basing competition around skill level would solve that. ;-)

At the top skill level, the problem would still arise.

 

[SomeRandom]

People can have an opinion on anything they please. Certainly women think they are entitled to their opinions on men and masculinity. But I digress.

I feel like people take the idea of “everyone is entitled to their own opinion” to mean “everyone is entitled to speak on everything under the sun” lol
I’m of the opinion that men (including trans men) should speak on men’s issues. I’ll lend a sympathetic ear and try to be supportive. But I try to stay out of such affairs now out of respect.

As for advantages, hormones won't change your bone structure, having larger heart and lungs or muscle memory, among other things, I'm sure. She'll always have some sort of advantage over a cis woman. The question is how to respond in a way that is fair.

That’s true

 

[Guitar's Cry]

At the top skill level, the problem would still arise.

At some point, the top athletes will be top athletes regardless of gender.

 

[Revoltingest]

At some point, the top athletes will be top athletes regardless of gender.

This doesn't address the compelling issue that
cis women would like to be top athletes, but
could be prevented from this by trans women
with advantages inherent from once being male.

I can see that there might arise events that
are limited to cis gender athletes. This is
just as many events are limited to no use
of enhancing drugs. Or by minimum age.
More balkanization of sports, eh.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

This doesn't address the compelling issue that
cis women would like to be top athletes, but
could be prevented from this by trans women
with advantages inherent from once being male.

I can see that there might arise events that
are limited to cis gender athletes. This is
just as many events are limited to no use
of enhancing drugs. Or by minimum age.
More balkanization of sports, eh.

There would still be top female athletes, but it would be based on skill class, right? Kind of like lightweight champions and heavyweight champions.

It's not as if every single female is going to be out-competed in every skill class.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I feel like people take the idea of “everyone is entitled to their own opinion” to mean “everyone is entitled to speak on everything under the sun” lol

Well, they are.