US Govt: Zionists must end illegal occupation for peace

[LuisDantas]

So what you saying is the apartheid state should show no respect for international law.

That is not at all what he said. It is not even a matter of sympathy or respect for either side; it just isn't what he said by any possible interpretation.

 

[LuisDantas]

According to international law all occupied land has to be given back.There is no negotiation on occupied land.

You must realize that such an argument is not meant to hold any water. It is an attempt at strongarming from a position of weakness. Worse still, while supporting terrorist actions.

As i said before Mr Peace was killed and the Zionist missed the boat.

You can't blame the fact that Arafat renounce the negotiations on the fact that he was killed.

 

[rosends]

So what you saying is the apartheid state should show no respect for international law.

No. I am saying that international law defines words in a particular way which flies in the face of your claim. By the way, "apartheid" is also not what you think.

 

[metis]

To the best of my knowledge, that experience is long outdated.

How can you say it's "outdated" when we've seen Jews targeted in other countries, especially by radical Muslims?

I disagree. Of course, it is easy for me to speak from my uninvolved position. But if resettling is not an option, I don't know that there are any viable options.

C'mon, do you honestly believe that any country is going to be willing to dissolve itself and move it's people out? And why should they? Do you run the first minute someone threatens you? We've had to move many times in many locations, and we still were and are targeted.

I fear that is exactly what is by far most likely to happen. It will get a lot worse before it gets any better, by any realistic scenario I can figure.

Then I would suggest putting most of the blame where it's now due, namely Hamas and its supporters, especially Iran. Hamas has repeatedly stated than no compromise with Israel is to be allowed, and both Arafat and Abbas have well known this and no doubt felt and feel threatened themselves. With Hamas, there is no compromise, pure and simple.

 

[LuisDantas]

How can you say it's "outdated" when we've seen Jews targeted in other countries, especially by radical Muslims?

That is precisely why I say so. Things changed a lot in the last few decades.

Other than Muslims, nearly no one has enough disregard to the Jewish People to target them militarily. And I figure even them have little excuse not involving the existence of Israel as a state in the Middle East.

If there is any truth whatsoever to the tales of how widespread antisemitism was in all of Europe before WW2, things have actually improved quite a lot. For most of recorded history, Jewish people simply lacked anything resembling the rights of safety and self-determination that they now have nearly everywhere outside Israel.

The Jewish People in Israel has those rights as well, after a fashion. But at too terrible a price for anyone who truly want to maintain. Arguably mainly for faults not theirs, but still, facts are what they are. There seems to be no honorable way to deal with the hostilities in the Middle East, and no good reason to insist on dealing with people that will not settle for anything less than an effective situation of perpetual war.

C'mon, do you honestly believe that any country is going to be willing to dissolve itself and move it's people out?

No, I don't expect that of any country, which is one of the main reasons why I have little regard for the very concept. It is an undue mythification and distortion of community values, and causes a whole lot more trouble than it is worth.

Life is much too short for any of us to waste so much energy with those concepts instead of with actual important things such as family and friends, IMO.

And why should they? Do you run the first minute someone threatens you? We've had to move many times in many locations, and we still were and are targeted.

It seems to me that Israel is, in essence, very badly placed. I realize that there are powerful religious reasons for that, but at some point matters of belief must be trumped by considerations of realism and respect for one's own people, as well as for others.

I do fault the Arabs more in that regard when it comes to the plight of Israel. But I can't in good faith ignore that much of its causes is essentially self-inflicted. What I am suggesting is awfully dangerous and difficult, I have no delusions on that regard. I can't even say I find that plan particularly feasible.

But at the end of the day, I know of no better alternative. The current trends are simply too horrendous to consider and accept passively. Militarism is the one thing promised by both sides, and it is nothing but a promise of further destruction and endless sorrow.

You all deserve better. Simple as that.

Then I would suggest putting most of the blame where it's now due, namely Hamas and its supporters, especially Iran. Hamas has repeatedly stated than no compromise with Israel is to be allowed, and both Arafat and Abbas have well known this and no doubt felt and feel threatened themselves. With Hamas, there is no compromise, pure and simple.

I accept what you say here as true. Unfortunately, that changes very little in the end. Hamas does not care that I disapprove of it.

 

[JacobEzra.]

How is it the Israelis fault? The Arabs didn't have to sell their land, renig on the deals, start wars, etc.

Luis you put a lot of blame on Israelis, when its the Arabs bigotry and uneducated religious fanaticism that has caused much of the conflict and reaction by Israel.

Maybe the Arabs should give up bigotry and genocidal rhetoric.

Israel is mostly reaction, heavy handed at times and could use reform, but its still a reaction.

Why do you say its the Israelis fault for living there when one could easily say why do the Arabs stay?

I mean, to be fair, many Arab countries in the area they could relocate too you know. Oh wait, the Arab world only talks about them, but action wise have forsaken them,

 

[metis]

That is precisely why I say so. Things changed a lot in the last few decades.

Other than Muslims, nearly no one has enough disregard to the Jewish People to target them militarily. And I figure even them have little excuse not involving the existence of Israel as a state in the Middle East.

If there is any truth whatsoever to the tales of how widespread antisemitism was in all of Europe before WW2, things have actually improved quite a lot. For most of recorded history, Jewish people simply lacked anything resembling the rights of safety and self-determination that they now have nearly everywhere outside Israel.

The Jewish People in Israel has those rights as well, after a fashion. But at too terrible a price for anyone who truly want to maintain. Arguably mainly for faults not theirs, but still, facts are what they are. There seems to be no honorable way to deal with the hostilities in the Middle East, and no good reason to insist on dealing with people that will not settle for anything less than an effective situation of perpetual war.




No, I don't expect that of any country, which is one of the main reasons why I have little regard for the very concept. It is an undue mythification and distortion of community values, and causes a whole lot more trouble than it is worth.

Life is much too short for any of us to waste so much energy with those concepts instead of with actual important things such as family and friends, IMO.




It seems to me that Israel is, in essence, very badly placed. I realize that there are powerful religious reasons for that, but at some point matters of belief must be trumped by considerations of realism and respect for one's own people, as well as for others.

I do fault the Arabs more in that regard when it comes to the plight of Israel. But I can't in good faith ignore that much of its causes is essentially self-inflicted. What I am suggesting is awfully dangerous and difficult, I have no delusions on that regard. I can't even say I find that plan particularly feasible.

But at the end of the day, I know of no better alternative. The current trends are simply too horrendous to consider and accept passively. Militarism is the one thing promised by both sides, and it is nothing but a promise of further destruction and endless sorrow.

You all deserve better. Simple as that.




I accept what you say here as true. Unfortunately, that changes very little in the end. Hamas does not care that I disapprove of it.

I understand where you're coming from, and I agree that dealing with this is truly a sticky-wicky. Plus I also appreciate the fact that you have no posted false equivalencies.

If we put this in the larger context, this is not the only place where this "sticky-wicky" is happening, as we see the Middle East and northern Africa exploding before our eyes, and India/Pakistan is a powder-keg as well. And the prognosis for the future is that it's likely to get worse in those locations because of high birth rates, high unemployment, and diminishing resources.

Gee, want any other good news?

 

[LuisDantas]

How is it the Israelis fault? The Arabs didn't have to sell their land, renig on the deals, start wars, etc.

Certainly true. The trick is however on convincing present day people that those are decisive factors.

Luis you put a lot of blame on Israelis,

I don't think I do. I just think it takes a lot, perhaps more than can realistically be attained, to justify military actions or even threatening it. By any people.

when its the Arabs bigotry and uneducated religious fanaticism that has caused much of the conflict and reaction by Israel.

Maybe the Arabs should give up bigotry and genocidal rhetoric.

Israel is mostly reaction, heavy handed at times and could use reform, but its still a reaction.

I don't particularly disagree, but when military action is threatened, I can't in good conscience approve.

Why do you say its the Israelis fault for living there when one could easily say why do the Arabs stay?

Leaving a land is not exactly easy, as I expect most of the Jewish People to know all too well. But that is not particularly decisive IMO. The hostility exists and it is not giving any hopeful signs of ending, far as I am aware.

I mean, to be fair, many Arab countries in the area they could relocate too you know. Oh wait, the Arab world only talks about them, but action wise have forsaken them,

I don't dispute that, but that fact hardly helps Israel in any way.

 

[faroukfarouk]

You can start the swimming race across the Atlantic first as I'll give you a head-start, OK? That's how unrealistic your post above is.

Why do you call the true facts unrealistic?

False. If the conditions remain hostile, which they are, then the charter states that a country can temporarily retain control for its own protection but not permanently.

Are you aware that settlements within occupied territories are in violations of international law?

 

[columbus]

I trust others will understand that yours is a convenient excuse from the author of an incendiary, antisemitic slur.

No not everyone understands that.
What many of us understand from this is that often any criticism of Israel or Zionist policy gets labeled antisemitic. It has made the word pretty useless to me, for one.
Tom

 

[faroukfarouk]

Firstly, Israel is a sovereign nation including territories currently under dispute. There is no occupation, and surrounding powers must accept Israel without conditions.

Not according to the UN.

True. Only according to international law.

So what you saying is the apartheid state should show no respect for international law.

No. I am saying that international law defines words in a particular way which flies in the face of your claim. By the way, "apartheid" is also not what you think.

The International Court of Justice, the UN General Assembly and the United Nations Security Council regards Israel as the "Occupying Power".
According to Talia Sasson, the High Court of Justice in Israel, with a variety of different justices sitting, has repeatedly stated for more than four decades that Israel’s presence in the West Bank is in violation of international law.
Your own judiciary confirms occupation and you say there is no occupation.
So far as apartheid is concerned take a lesson.
Israels discriminatory treatment of Palestinians in occupied Palestinian territories which harshly discriminate against Palestinian residents, depriving them of basic necessities while providing lavish amenities for Jewish settlement is regarded as apartheid.So blatant is the discrimination against Palestinian that even the State Department acknowledges in its human rights report that Palestinian citizens of Israel face “institutional and societal discrimination,”
Note there is much more discrimination that i can give you..........

 

[Flankerl]

Do you know how many Palestinians are refugees?
Do you know how their farms have been stolen from under their noses?
Do you know that their forefathers were buried in those farms?
Do you know that the present apartheid state of Israel built highways over that grave sites?
Do you want to know about the terror gangs that were used to force Palestinians into refugee camps?
Do you want to know more?

So what? Where do you think all the Mizrahim and Sephardim lived prior to 1948? You think they were eager to leave all their stuff behind and start from 0 in Israel? (fun fact: more Jews became refugees after 1948 than Arabs)

**** happens during war. Grow up.
I live in a country that integrated 12 Million refugees after WW2 almost flawlessly. Organisations who want to reclaim the former territories are among a tiniest minority.

 

[faroukfarouk]

So what? Where do you think all the Mizrahim and Sephardim lived prior to 1948? You think they were eager to leave all their stuff behind and start from 0 in Israel? (fun fact: more Jews became refugees after 1948 than Arabs)

So the Jews came to Israel as refugees.

**** happens during war. Grow up.
I live in a country that integrated 12 Million refugees after WW2 almost flawlessly. Organisations who want to reclaim the former territories are among a tiniest minority.

So war gives you the right to steal other peoples property.

 

[metis]

Why do you call the true facts unrealistic?


Are you aware that settlements within occupied territories are in violations of international law?

And do you think suicide bombings and targeting civilians with missiles and rockets is right with international law? Houses are more important than human lives in your book? Seems your concerns are just one-sided.

Also, the housing in Zone C is not in violation.

 

[Poisonshady313]

You can't blame the fact that Arafat renounce the negotiations on the fact that he was killed.

Check your facts. Arafat was not killed.

 

[faroukfarouk]

And do you think suicide bombings and targeting civilians with missiles and rockets is right with international law? Houses are more important than human lives in your book? Seems your concerns are just one-sided.

Of course its not right.But that does not give Israel the right to throw bombs on top of their houses.It also does not give Israel the right to kill women and children.

Also, the housing in Zone C is not in violation.

Ha,ha,ha.......That is what you call apartheid bantustans.
I did have the opportunity of meeting an Jewish apartheid activist called Ronnie Kasrils and he explained to me what was a apartheid bantustan.To be frank i never had the knowledge until i met him.

 

[metis]

Of course its not right.But that does not give Israel the right to throw bombs on top of their houses.It also does not give Israel the right to kill women and children.

The IDF does not target civilians, and an officer or soldier will be in trouble if they did. If, for example, they were to actually target civilians last summer, the death toll would have been much, much higher.

A top British officer who was ahead of the British forces in Afghanistan stated that the IDF is the most moral military force in the world. Which other military drops leaflets for warnings and even calls people to get out of harm's way-- certainly not the Palestinians. Can you imagine for even just one second what the result would have been if the Palestinians had all the munitions that Israel used and they were hitting much weaker Israeli targets?

If you think for one minute that you and Hamas occupies some sort of moral high-ground on this, then you need both a reality and a morality-check.

 

[Flankerl]

So the Jews came to Israel as refugees.

Yeah the majority of Israeli Jews are former refugees or descendants of said refugees from Arab/Muslim countries who drove them out of their homes.

You know what Israel did? They integrated them.

So war gives you the right to steal other peoples property.

Yes of course it does, always been that way. And the Arab countries would do nothing else.
Three years prior to the first war between Israel and the Arab countries entire Eastern Europe was changed through wars. People lost their homes and countries lost their minorities who were forcefully resettled.
It was the biggest population transfer since the Germanic migration period.

What happened to these people? The last refugee camps vanished from Germany during the 60s. 12 Million people integrated.

 

[rosends]

The International Court of Justice, the UN General Assembly and the United Nations Security Council regards Israel as the "Occupying Power".
According to Talia Sasson, the High Court of Justice in Israel, with a variety of different justices sitting, has repeatedly stated for more than four decades that Israel’s presence in the West Bank is in violation of international law.
Your own judiciary confirms occupation and you say there is no occupation.
So far as apartheid is concerned take a lesson.
Israels discriminatory treatment of Palestinians in occupied Palestinian territories which harshly discriminate against Palestinian residents, depriving them of basic necessities while providing lavish amenities for Jewish settlement is regarded as apartheid.So blatant is the discrimination against Palestinian that even the State Department acknowledges in its human rights report that Palestinian citizens of Israel face “institutional and societal discrimination,”
Note there is much more discrimination that i can give you..........

I can, if you like, cite all sorts of international law on the distinction between occupied and disputed. Bottom line, there is no other sovereign power claiming control so the land cannot be legally occupied. And if in disputed territories treatment cannot be classified as apartheid. Israeli citizens all have rights. In an apartheid state are there minority members of parliament or the supreme court? If you'd like, I can cite actual examples of apartheid in the mideast, like highways for Muslims only.

 

[faroukfarouk]

The IDF does not target civilians, and an officer or soldier will be in trouble if they did. If, for example, they were to actually target civilians last summer, the death toll would have been much, much higher.
A top British officer who was ahead of the British forces in Afghanistan stated that the IDF is the most moral military force in the world. Which other military drops leaflets for warnings and even calls people to get out of harm's way-- certainly not the Palestinians. Can you imagine for even just one second what the result would have been if the Palestinians had all the munitions that Israel used and they were hitting much weaker Israeli targets?
If you think for one minute that you and Hamas occupies some sort of moral high-ground on this, then you need both a reality and a morality-check.

The most moral military in the World???????????????????????????????

They had no mercy on anything that moved.

A military that has no mercy for animals.