Utah counts down to firing squad execution

[Smokeless Indica]

Guilty people on death row does not excuse innocent people on death row. I would be find with having Hitler himself be allowed to live if it prevented innocent people from being executed. This isn't something you should shrug off.

And I consider the death penalty different from killing bugs because I consider even the worst human to be of more value than bugs. Like I said, empathy, it's important. Not as a punishment, but a safety measure for guards and other prisoners.

And we have solitary confinement for a reason. I have no problem with keeping criminals who are a danger even in prison in solitary.

Ok wow because of Hitler 11-17 million innocent people died if not more.
If the death penalty was abolished who's to say innocent people in prison won't kill themselves because they think that would be better than life in prison. Either way an innocent person could die.

If you can have empathy for a person why not a bug? How would you like it if someone 100 times your size squished you? It's a life why doesn't it deserve to live?

 

[KatNotKathy]

Had he and other murderers been dead, all the war on drugs would have been responsible for is letting go a bunch of non-violent criminals.

This sentence doesn't even make sense given the context. Perhaps you could rephrase it?

You don't want them to die... and I assume you don't want them released,,, and when they're in prison, they get colored TV, ergo...

They shouldn't have color TVs, but if this counts as an argument, you've been arguing that you want innocent people to be killed. After all, if the death penalty is available, innocent people will be killed, ergo...

 

[Smokeless Indica]

I'd wager that the percentage of innocents executed out of the total number of executions is not a positive integer. Less than 1%

Uh...even if only 1% of executions are innocent people, the number of innocent people killed is still a positive integer, just as Revoltingest said.

He said LESS THAN 1%, not 1%

 

[KatNotKathy]

Ok wow because of Hitler 11-17 million innocent people died if not more.
If the death penalty was abolished who's to say innocent people in prison won't kill themselves because they think that would be better than life in prison. Either way an innocent person could die.

At least it would be their own choice. I find no problem with suicide. There is a HUGE difference between somebody offing themselves and somebody else killing them.

If you can have empathy for a person why not a bug? How would you like it if someone 100 times your size squished you? It's a life why doesn't it deserve to live?

Honestly, probably mirror neurons and basic biology. Empathy is a biological reality and isn't something you can control. I just can't empathize with bugs, sorry. I can sympathize with them being squished, but I literally cannot empathize with them. It's a biological impossibility.

edit: I also never said they don't deserve to live. They probably do, I just can't empathize with them.

 

[KatNotKathy]

He said LESS THAN 1%, not 1%

Yes, and even if only 1 innocent person was ever executed out of millions, it would still be a positive integer when discussed in raw numbers, as Revoltingest had stated. Come on, this isn't calculus.

See, the big difference is that Poisonshady came in introducing percentages rather than raw numbers. If less than 1% (but greater than zero) were innocent, it would not be a positive integer percentagewise, but it would most certainly be a positive integer when speaking of raw numbers. Either way this is all a stupid argument because there are innocent people being killed by the state, and for some reason people are finding it to be an acceptable cost.

 

[Smokeless Indica]

At least it would be their own choice. I find no problem with suicide. There is a HUGE difference between somebody offing themselves and somebody else killing them.


Honestly, probably mirror neurons and basic biology. Empathy is a biological reality and isn't something you can control. I just can't empathize with bugs, sorry. I can sympathize with them being squished, but I literally cannot empathize with them. It's a biological impossibility.

I empathize with bugs just fine. (Maybe it's because I'm short I don't know)
I know I wouldn't want to be squished.

 

[Poisonshady313]

What other alternative reason is there for 41% of death row being black when they only make up 12% of the population? Do you believe that black people commit a such a significantly higher portion of heinous crimes to justify them FAR outstripping their demographics?

Considering the fact that the population of death row has absolutely nothing to do with the "application of the death penalty", why would any of this matter?

edit: fwiw, they're only 34% of people already executed since 1976, but even that is far higher than can reasonably be expected. The only way you can say that the death penalty is not racist is by showing that black people commit FAR more crime, and more crimes deserving of the death penalty (nevermind studies showing that for the same crime, black defendants receive stiffer penalties than white defendants).

The only relevant numbers are how many black people were executed relative to the number of black death row inmates during the given time.

The rate at which they're convicted has absolutely nothing to do with the rate at which they're executed. The rate at which they're convicted (if it is disproportional to the rate at which they're actually guilty) says something about the racism of juries. The rate at which they're arrested (if it is disproportional to the rate at which they're suspected) says something about the racism of cops.

At one point I think I managed to find numbers that showed white people spending less time on death row before being executed than black people. That sound racist against blacks to you?


This whole "the death penalty is racist" is a weak argument (especially because the one thing everyone's quick to cite is the number of people on death row proportional to the population of black people in this country.... a most meaningless statistic). An easy appeal to emotion. Nobody wants to be thought of as supporting racism.

 

[KatNotKathy]

Considering the fact that the population of death row has absolutely nothing to do with the "application of the death penalty", why would any of this matter?

What? Want the percentage of people already killed? It's still 34% (since 1976) compared to the 12% population figure.

 

[KatNotKathy]

I empathize with bugs just fine. (Maybe it's because I'm short I don't know)
I know I wouldn't want to be squished.

I wouldn't want to be squished either. I can be plenty sympathetic about that, but empathy is a biological reaction from mirror neurons, and I guess mine just ain't firing there.

 

[Poisonshady313]

Yes, and even if only 1 innocent person was ever executed out of millions, it would still be a positive integer when discussed in raw numbers, as Revoltingest had stated. Come on, this isn't calculus.

See, the big difference is that Poisonshady came in introducing percentages rather than raw numbers. If less than 1% (but greater than zero) were innocent, it would not be a positive integer percentagewise, but it would most certainly be a positive integer when speaking of raw numbers. Either way this is all a stupid argument because there are innocent people being killed by the state, and for some reason people are finding it to be an acceptable cost.

Nobody claims that the death penalty is perfect.... yet you demand perfection in order to begin to contemplate accepting it.

I think being pretty damn near to perfect proves that it's not at all sloppy, irresponsible, or reckless. That more than 99% of the time, it's doing exactly what it's supposed to do. And I mourn for the exception the same way I mourn for those who die in prison even when they're not serving life sentences. It's horrible, but that doesn't seem to bother you as much as if the state uses chemicals to expedite the process.

 

[KatNotKathy]

Nobody claims that the death penalty is perfect.... yet you demand perfection in order to begin to contemplate accepting it.

I think being pretty damn near to perfect proves that it's not at all sloppy, irresponsible, or reckless. That more than 99% of the time, it's doing exactly what it's supposed to do. And I mourn for the exception the same way I mourn for those who die in prison even when they're not serving life sentences. It's horrible, but that doesn't seem to bother you as much as if the state uses chemicals to expedite the process.

I do demand that it be perfect, because the alternative is to accept innocent people being executed, and I can't roll with that.

 

[KatNotKathy]

If a single innocent person is executed, it makes even a million dead Hitlerstalin clones not worth it.

edit: It's been fun, but I think I mighta had one too many swigs of my yummy pomegranate vodka, so I think I might peace out till I sober up a bit.

I mean, I'll still argue and such, but if I ever stop making any sense, now you know why. Gooooo alcoholism!

 

[Poisonshady313]

What? Want the percentage of people already killed? It's still 34% (since 1976) compared to the 12% population figure.

It's clear that you don't understand why the figure you give doesn't matter.

The fact that 12% of the population is black has absolutely nothing to do with how often the death penalty is applied to black people.

Individuals who are executed aren't selected from a pool of random citizens. They're not even selected from a pool of random inmates. They're selected from death row (and from only their state), according to when appeals are exhausted.


In any given year, in any given state, how many black people were executed compared to white people executed? How many white or black people were on death row at the time? How long, on average, had the white or black convicts been on death row before being executed? And what makes you think that their skin color is the reason they were selected at that particular time, as opposed to the simple fact that their appeals had run out and their sentence upheld?

 

[Poisonshady313]

I do demand that it be perfect, because the alternative is to accept innocent people being executed, and I can't roll with that.

You accept an imperfection that results in the death of more innocent people than I do.

 

[KatNotKathy]

It's clear that you don't understand why the figure you give doesn't matter.

The fact that 12% of the population is black has absolutely nothing to do with how often the death penalty is applied to black people.

Individuals who are executed aren't selected from a pool of random citizens. They're not even selected from a pool of random inmates. They're selected from death row (and from only their state), according to when appeals are exhausted.


In any given year, in any given state, how many black people were executed compared to white people executed? How many white or black people were on death row at the time? How long, on average, had the white or black convicts been on death row before being executed? And what makes you think that their skin color is the reason they were selected at that particular time, as opposed to the simple fact that their appeals had run out and their sentence upheld?

So it's okay that the convictions of black folks resulting in the death penalty massively outweigh convictions of whites even accounting for crime prosecuted for? Sorry, but if convictions handed out are racially biased, then so is the death penalty on whole. Like I said, 34% of people executed have been black. The only way that could be justified is by stating that not only black people commit more crimes, but that they commit more crimes worthy of the death penalty, at a rate FAR exceeding demographic expectations.

 

[KatNotKathy]

You accept an imperfection that results in the death of more innocent people than I do.

Honestly, I support much longer sentences for most violent criminals. Just because I'm staunchly anti-death penalty don't assume I support measures that would make it easier for murders to kill again. I mean, we could debate giving violent offenders longer sentences, but I imagine that'd be a really boring debate.

e: longer sentences for violent offenders and abolishing the death penalty will both decrease innocent deaths by keeping murderers away from the general population as well as allowing innocents to be released if falsely convicted. It's win-win.

 

[Poisonshady313]

So it's okay that the convictions of black folks resulting in the death penalty massively outweigh convictions of whites even accounting for crime prosecuted for?

I never said it was ok. I'm saying it's irrelevant when it comes to determining whether or not the application of the death penalty is racist.

The death penalty isn't applied until the convict in question is dead.

Which is why death row statistics relative to the total population is entirely irrelevant.

 

[KatNotKathy]

I never said it was ok. I'm saying it's irrelevant when it comes to determining whether or not the application of the death penalty is racist.

The death penalty isn't applied until the convict in question is dead.

Which is why death row statistics relative to the total population is entirely irrelevant.

How about those statistics I gave of people already killed? Even then, black people are killed disproportionately.

 

[Poisonshady313]

Honestly, I support much longer sentences for most violent criminals. Just because I'm staunchly anti-death penalty don't assume I support measures that would make it easier for murders to kill again. I mean, we could debate giving violent offenders longer sentences, but I imagine that'd be a really boring debate.

e: longer sentences for violent offenders and abolishing the death penalty will both decrease innocent deaths by keeping murderers away from the general population as well as allowing innocents to be released if falsely convicted. It's win-win.

Decrease, but not eliminate. Murderers shouldn't be able to re-offend ever again. The only way to do that is to kill them.

You don't get a longer sentence than what Lemuel Smith has... but if he ever kills again while in prison, he won't ever be put to death. What does it mean for a piece of paper to say he has several life sentences? It means someone wasted ink writing about a man who is allowed to get away with murder.

The examples I mentioned aren't the only ones that exist... they're just the only ones I can easily rattle off the top of my head. In the last 34 years, more innocent people have been killed by re-offending murderers who should have been put to death than have been executed by way of capital punishment.

Which means that your accepted level of imperfection is measurably worse than mine.

 

[KatNotKathy]

Here's an idea: replace the death penalty with life in solitary. Let them commit suicide if they really want to (it's be unfortunate, but that's their right). Bam, no more killing of innocents after conviction. Hell, it'd even save money.

I most certainly do NOT accept murderers reoffending, and I support measures that would prevent that, provided it doesn't lead to the execution of innocents. Just because I oppose the death penalty doesn't mean I support criminals being put into a position where they could even possibly reoffend.