Utah counts down to firing squad execution

[Poisonshady313]

How about those statistics I gave of people already killed? Even then, black people are killed disproportionately.

Compared to the total population is irrelevant. I've explained this several times already.

Jews make up 22% of Nobel prize recipients. Jews make up 0.22% of the world's population. You figure the Nobel prize committees in Sweden and Norway are racist against non-Jews? Or is it possible that they win the prize for reasons other than being Jewish? I'm Jewish... why haven't I won a Nobel prize yet?


Of the black people that have been executed... do they generally spend less time on death row than whites? If so, can you show me conclusively that it's for no other reason than the color of their skin?

 

[Poisonshady313]

Here's an idea: replace the death penalty with life in solitary. Let them commit suicide if they really want to (it's be unfortunate, but that's their right). Bam, no more killing of innocents after conviction. Hell, it'd even save money.

I most certainly do NOT accept murderers reoffending, and I support measures that would prevent that, provided it doesn't lead to the execution of innocents. Just because I oppose the death penalty doesn't mean I support criminals being put into a position where they could even possibly reoffend.

But in the past 34 years, prisoners being given life sentences have more success in killing innocent people than the institution of capital punishment has. The alternative to the death penalty is measurably imperfect when it comes to preventing murderers from reoffending. It may be hard... but obviously not harder than a state executing an innocent person. So why is it ok to accept your imperfect system but not mine, when yours results in more innocent people being killed?

 

[KatNotKathy]

But in the past 34 years, prisoners being given life sentences have more success in killing innocent people than the institution of capital punishment has. The alternative to the death penalty is measurably imperfect when it comes to preventing murderers from reoffending. It may be hard... but obviously not harder than a state executing an innocent person. So why is it ok to accept your imperfect system but not mine, when yours results in more innocent people being killed?

Because there are more alternatives to the death penalty than just letting the worst prisoners back into the general population, or even the general prison population... Tell me, how many murderers have killed again after being kept in solitary confinement, away from other people?

The thing is, just because I oppose the death penalty doesn't mean I support letting criminals off easy. There are more than 2 ways to do things. It's just that the current system is completely unacceptable.

 

[KatNotKathy]

Of the black people that have been executed... do they generally spend less time on death row than whites? If so, can you show me conclusively that it's for no other reason than the color of their skin?

Doesn't really matter if they got killed in the end anyways, does it? You're assuming that black people in general commit far more crimes, and far more severe of crimes, than any other racial group in America. Are black people just more likely to be horrible criminals? Please, tell me how you feel about African-Americans with relation to crime. I'd love to hear it.

 

[Poisonshady313]

Clarence Ray Allen was sentenced to life without the possibility of parole... and he managed to be responsible for the murder of three more people while he was inside.

If he were on death row, he never would have been able to conspire with a fellow inmate to kill witnesses that would testify against him in a new trial. Three more innocent people would have been alive if Clarence Ray Allen were sentenced to death. An imperfection you're willing to live with, just as long as it's not a significantly more rare mistake made by a system designed to protect those three people.

 

[KatNotKathy]

So are blacks just naturally evil and more likely to commit crimes to the extent that 34% of executed criminals have been black despite being hugely out of proportion with the demographics, or is it something else throwing things off?

 

[KatNotKathy]

Clarence Ray Allen was sentenced to life without the possibility of parole... and he managed to be responsible for the murder of three more people while he was inside.

If he were on death row, he never would have been able to conspire with a fellow inmate to kill witnesses that would testify against him in a new trial. Three more innocent people would have been alive if Clarence Ray Allen were sentenced to death. An imperfection you're willing to live with, just as long as it's not a significantly more rare mistake made by a system designed to protect those three people.

Life sentence != solitary confinement. I believe that dangerous criminals should be kept away from even other less-dangerous prisoners. I guarantee this guy wouldn't have been able to do **** if he wasn't mixed with the general population. It's not an imperfection I'm willing to live with at all. You're assuming that I want criminals who would normally be killed instead be put in a position where they can harm again, which I most certainly am not.

 

[Poisonshady313]

Doesn't really matter if they got killed in the end anyways, does it?

Who said that?

You're assuming that black people in general commit far more crimes, and far more severe of crimes, than any other racial group in America. Are black people just more likely to be horrible criminals? Please, tell me how you feel about African-Americans with relation to crime. I'd love to hear it.

I most certainly am not assuming that black people in general commit far more crimes. I'm saying, don't confuse arrest and conviction with execution.

In a given year, how many black people are put to death relative to their death row population?

In a given year, how many white people are put to death relative to their death row population?

And relative to each other, how long does each (a white convict and a black convict) sit on death row before execution?

Tookie Williams (black) killed 4 people, and spent more time on death row than Kenneth Lee Boyd (white) who killed 3 people. Relative to the severity of their crimes, wouldn't you say Boyd got a raw deal? Is this an indication that the people in charge of executing people have it out for black people?

 

[KatNotKathy]

34% of people executed have been black. This FAR exceeds what should be expected for the demographics. How long it takes is immaterial if they die in the end anyways.

 

[Poisonshady313]

So are blacks just naturally evil and more likely to commit crimes to the extent that 34% of executed criminals have been black despite being hugely out of proportion with the demographics, or is it something else throwing things off?

You're still not getting it.

THE DEMOGRAPHICS OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA IS IRRELEVANT!

You're trying to have a different conversation than I am. I'm not talking about the racism of the court system... of public defenders or of attorneys.... or even of cops.

When you claim that the application of the death penalty is racist, you must be willing to support this using relevant information.


Tell me... is the percentage of black people on death row in this country 12%? (and has this been steady over the past 34 years?)

 

[KatNotKathy]

If one particular group is convicted and executed far beyond what could reasonably be suspected, it doesn't matter if they stay on death row longer. The end result is still far more people being executed than should be expected.

 

[KatNotKathy]

You're still not getting it.

THE DEMOGRAPHICS OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA IS IRRELEVANT!

You're trying to have a different conversation than I am. I'm not talking about the racism of the court system... of public defenders or of attorneys.... or even of cops.

When you claim that the application of the death penalty is racist, you must be willing to support this using relevant information.


Tell me... is the percentage of black people on death row in this country 12%? (and has this been steady over the past 34 years?)

If you can't see the connection between being sentenced to death and being executed, I really don't know what to say... If the court system is racist and sentences black people to death more often, then that has a direct effect on the number of people executed. Seriously, this should be easy to see.

 

[Poisonshady313]

34% of people executed have been black. This FAR exceeds what should be expected for the demographics. How long it takes is immaterial if they die in the end anyways.

You're wrong. The demographics of the whole country is what is immaterial. How long it takes is relevant because it would be meaningful if you could establish a pattern that shows black death row convicts are given inordinately less time than their white counterparts.


The death penalty isn't carried out regularly. At all. Therefore, it is absolutely meaningless to hope that there's any sort of pattern attached to a group so vague and large as a national population.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

edit: The ONLY way you could justify this is by assuming that black people commit SIGNIFICANTLY more crime, and also more heinous crimes "deserving of death", than other racial groups. However, studies have shown that even accounting for crime convicted under, blacks still receive the death penalty more than whites. Once again, not an opinion but an objective fact.

I willing to assume that stereotypes, especially gangs, play a significant role in this. It might not be that blacks commit more crimes and are sentenced more, but rather police are looking for specific people, and these types of people the judges are going to frown upon as soon as they walk through the court house doors. From my own experience, me and a group of friends was jumped by a gang once. Even though we was outnumbered the worse injury any of us sustained was a broken nose, and the gang took off after a few minutes. A small group of three or four saw this fight, and called the police. As we were going to one my friend's house, the police showed up, searched my two friends that had been in trouble before (but not me even though I was wearing a trench coat), told us he might have to take us in, lectured us for awhile, and when the radio announced they had caught up the other group and they were gang related, the one cop told us to have a good night, jumped in his cruiser, and took of with his lights and sirens on.
I suspect similar situations of the police targeting specific groups have manipulated the statistics on punishments ranging from a few days in jail up to capitol punishment. They don't commit more crimes, they just get caught more often, especially people who are already in the system.

 

[KatNotKathy]

You're wrong. The demographics of the whole country is what is immaterial. How long it takes is relevant because it would be meaningful if you could establish a pattern that shows black death row convicts are given inordinately less time than their white counterparts.


The death penalty isn't carried out regularly. At all. Therefore, it is absolutely meaningless to hope that there's any sort of pattern attached to a group so vague and large as a national population.

How does the time until death matter when a disproportionate number of minority folks are convicted and executed? Whether you were waiting on death row for 10 weeks or 10 years, in the end you're getting killed.

I willing to assume that stereotypes, especially gangs, play a significant role in this. It might not be that blacks commit more crimes and are sentenced more, but rather police are looking for specific people, and these types of people the judges are going to frown upon as soon as they walk through the court house doors. From my own experience, me and a group of friends was jumped by a gang once. Even though we was outnumbered the worse injury any of us sustained was a broken nose, and the gang took off after a few minutes. A small group of three or four saw this fight, and called the police. As we were going to one my friend's house, the police showed up, searched my two friends that had been in trouble before (but not me even though I was wearing a trench coat), told us he might have to take us in, lectured us for awhile, and when the radio announced they had caught up the other group and they were gang related, the one cop told us to have a good night, jumped in his cruiser, and took of with his lights and sirens on.
I suspect similar situations of the police targeting specific groups have manipulated the statistics on punishments ranging from a few days in jail up to capitol punishment.

Yes, generally cops target minorities more often, which leads to more arrests, and more convictions. This is racist. I'm sure you can see that.

 

[Poisonshady313]

If you can't see the connection between being sentenced to death and being executed, I really don't know what to say... If the court system is racist and sentences black people to death more often, then that has a direct effect on the number of people executed. Seriously, this should be easy to see.

How many people are on death row in any given state in any given year? How many executions happen in that state in that year?

Understand that the factors that go into execution have absolutely nothing to do with how many people are sentenced.

Your statement: "If the court system is racist and sentences black people to death more often, then that has a direct effect on the number of people executed." is absolutely wrong.

If you take the total number of executions since 76, and divide them by the number of years since 76... you get the number of states with death penalty statutes.

If every state with a death penalty statute executed only one prisoner every year for 34 years, with only 24 of those states executing a second person on only one of those years... you'll have the same amount of executions as you have now.

That ought to give you an idea of just how rare the death penalty is applied.

You can't expect anything, much less expect the number of executions to be proportional to the population in the whole country.

 

[KatNotKathy]

Like I said, if one innocent person is executed, that is one person too many, and it's a fact that innocent people HAVE been killed.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

You're wrong. The demographics of the whole country is what is immaterial. How long it takes is relevant because it would be meaningful if you could establish a pattern that shows black death row convicts are given inordinately less time than their white counterparts.

I know a white boy who broke into a few churches and a head shop maybe 10 months ago and he is already out of jail. A black man pulled a gun on an undercover cop who did not identify himself, and not only was this man tried, but the cops tried to retry him when he was found not guilty. (Now of course you can't do that, and they didn't request was denied.) Look at Rodney King, true he shouldn't have been speeding and then running from the police, but the beating he got was unjustified.

 

[KatNotKathy]

I know a white boy who broke into a few churches and a head shop maybe 10 months ago and he is already out of jail. A black man pulled a gun on an undercover cop who did not identify himself, and not only was this man tried, but the cops tried to retry him when he was found not guilty. (Now of course you can't do that, and they didn't request was denied.) Look at Rodney King, true he shouldn't have been speeding and then running from the police, but the beating he got was unjustified.

Yes, cops being racist is no news. I've gotten away with a lot of **** that I'm certain I would have been slammed for if I wasn't so damn pale.

(**** the police)

 

[Poisonshady313]

How does the time until death matter when a disproportionate number of minority folks are convicted and executed? Whether you were waiting on death row for 10 weeks or 10 years, in the end you're getting killed.

Let me try it this way.


If I wanted to know how much salt was in a cup of water from the Pacific Ocean, would you go into your backyard swimming pool to collect a sample? Or would you go to the beach in California?


You would go to the beach, because the water in your backyard is irrelevant.

The number of executions that happen in any given time period has absolutely nothing to do with the number of convictions in the same time period.

Some people sit on death row for a few years.... some for 20 years.... some for more than 40 years... and some people die of old age on death row without being executed at all.

I'll repeat this because it's important.

The number of executions that happen in any given time period has absolutely nothing to do with the number of convictions in the same time period.