Utah counts down to firing squad execution

[Shadow Wolf]

so what determines why any number of people are executed THIS year, instead of any other year? If you don't know how many white death row convicts are being executed compared to black death row convicts relative to their number on death row, how can a comparison be made?

This year, next year, last year, the next decade, it's all irrelevant. What we are looking at is how many people have been executed and sentenced to death row, and what percentage are white, black, hispanic, and so on.

The rest of the song though is clearly a rant against police brutality.

Just to clarify, it's what the cops hear and take for face value. Of course a rational person hears a middle finger towards police brutality, but when a cop who is already racially profiling hears such lyrics, I don't think it's unreasonable to think they are going to "smell something" during a routine search if they heard the song being played from the car they just pulled over. Or try to keep things civil and not get super defensive over a song that they think is about killing police.

 

[Poisonshady313]

If somebody is sentenced to death, how does that have nothing to do with execution? People don't get executed unless they're sentenced to death. There is a clear case of causation there.

A person on death row is more likely to die from old age, illness, suicide, or a combination thereof than to be executed. The number of people sentenced and the number of people executed are completely unrelated. And when you have a number of people sentenced, those that will be executed (and not all of them will be) will be executed at many various different points in the future. Some in 5 years, some in 13, some in 27... so when talking about executions, it means absolutely nothing to talk about how many death sentences were handed out in any given time frame, because there is no consistent measure of regularity between sentencing and execution...

so how the hell could you say there is an irregularity (i.e. racism)?

Comparing the number of executed to the number of the whole population is meaningless.

 

[KatNotKathy]

If the people executed have no correlation to people on death row, how does that explain that 34% of people executed have been black? You keep saying that civilian demographics are irrelevant, but how do you explain that a third of the people killed are black? Like I said: 2 possibilities, either there is some irregularity (ie racism), or black people are just more criminal. Which is it?

 

[KatNotKathy]

Just to clarify, it's what the cops hear and take for face value. Of course a rational person hears a middle finger towards police brutality, but when a cop who is already racially profiling hears such lyrics, I don't think it's unreasonable to think they are going to "smell something" during a routine search if they heard the song being played from the car they just pulled over. Or try to keep things civil and not get super defensive over a song that they think is about killing police.

Yeah, **** the police.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

A person on death row is more likely to die from old age, illness, suicide, or a combination thereof than to be executed. The number of people sentenced and the number of people executed are completely unrelated. And when you have a number of people sentenced, those that will be executed (and not all of them will be) will be executed at many various different points in the future. Some in 5 years, some in 13, some in 27... so when talking about executions, it means absolutely nothing to talk about how many death sentences were handed out in any given time frame, because there is no consistent measure of regularity between sentencing and execution...

The time is not the issue. If someone dies while on death row it is irrelavent. What we are looking at is how many people are not only sentenced to death row, but also how many people are actually executed. Blacks are executed more often that whites. The time frame doesn't matter, it just means they are more eager to fry a black man than a white one.

 

[Poisonshady313]

This year, next year, last year, the next decade, it's all irrelevant. What we are looking at is how many people have been executed and sentenced to death row, and what percentage are white, black, hispanic, and so on.

Then you're numbers are meaningless. There is no regularity with which executions are carried out over the course of 34 years, so no valid comparisons can be made.


Here's an example. Let's say you work a cash register at a retail store. Part of your job description is to sign people up for a membership card. More than that, you must have a 20% sign up rate in order to be an employee of good standing.

That could either be relative to one's total transactions, or relative to eligible transactions (i.e. transactions where the person doesn't have a card)

Now... if you have 634 transactions, and 574 of those already have membership cards, and the other 60 you sign up... you've got a 9.5% sign up rate relative to your total transactions.

If some other guy... we'll call him "Jim", has 5 transactions, and 4 of them have a card and one signs up, Jim has a 0.20% sign up rate relative to his total transactions.

Now, if I look at your percentages, I see that you're at 9.5%, and Jim is at 20%.... so even though you've been working harder, and have had more people using their membership cards, and you've signed up 60 times as many cards as Jim... you come across as a guy who hasn't been working hard enough. Why can't you be at 20% like Jim? Are you incompetent? Surely when you've got 634 customers, you can sign up more than 60, right?

Well no... you can't sign up a guy who already has a card. It's out of your control, but it's held against you just the same. Unfairly.


Now... in a situation where you're judged according to your eligible transactions... Let's say you sign up 40 people out of 80 who don't have a card. That's 50%. Even if you had 600 transactions in that week, if you've managed to have 520 of them already with a card, you should only be judged according to the number of eligible transactions... which are the 80 where a person started out without a card.

That way it can be said, relative to the number of eligible transactions, you've signed up 50%.

What's being measured is your ability to sell something to someone who doesn't have that thing already. It would be absolutely meaningless to judge your ability to sell something to someone you can't possibly sell to.


Back to the topic at hand. It would be absolutely meaningless to judge the tendency of this country to execute black people disproportionately compared to the total number of people, many of which are ineligible to be executed. You're only eligible if you're on death row. You can't execute someone who isn't on death row. The country's use of a punishment is measured by its tendency to fairly apply a punishment to someone who is eligible to receive it.



So... telling me that those executed is disproportionate to the population as a whole is like telling me 60 sign ups are inadequate in relation to my total transactions. It's meaningless. Tell me how I did in regards to eligible transactions.

How many black people are being executed relative to their population on death row?

Given a higher rate of conviction, which you so repetitively pointed out to me... and their lower rate of execution... something you've also pointed out to me... it would seem that the application of the death penalty has been far more favorable to blacks than to whites.

 

[KatNotKathy]

Why aren't we questioning just why 41% of death row is black? Seriously, what possible explanation is there for that? You keep saying it's irrelevant, but you never actually answer it. Why is it that black people both put on death row and executed at a rate exceeding their demographic? I know you want to brush this off as totally irrelevant, but humor me: Why is it that we're sentencing to death and killing blacks at a much higher rate than other racial groups?

 

[Poisonshady313]

The time is not the issue. If someone dies while on death row it is irrelavent. What we are looking at is how many people are not only sentenced to death row, but also how many people are actually executed. Blacks are executed more often that whites. The time frame doesn't matter, it just means they are more eager to fry a black man than a white one.

How many are sentenced to death row is irrelevant. It's a straw man.



Let's look at this year, as of June 1st (leaving 2 executions unaccounted for, but I don't have the stats on them.)

17 out of 29 executions this year were white guys.
8 out of 29 executions this year were black guys.


If what you say is right... there have been more black guys sitting on death row at every moment all year long.... yet less than half of those executed this year were black.


Can it really be said that black people are being executed more often than white people?

 

[Poisonshady313]

Why aren't we questioning just why 41% of death row is black?

Because that's not the subject at hand. Someone made the claim that the application of the death penalty is racist. And that is the claim I'm arguing against.

Conviction and sentencing are a completely different question than execution, because there is no group being executed in any sort of regularity relative to their death row population.

but humor me: Why is it that we're sentencing to death and killing blacks at a much higher rate than other racial groups?

Ask a relevant and unloaded question. You can't ask me why we're killing blacks at a higher rate when we aren't killing blacks at a higher rate.

We might be convicting them at a higher rate... but we certainly are not killing them at a higher rate.

Unless you have numbers that say otherwise... but as long as you keep telling me about the population of black people in the united states, you're not giving me meaningful numbers.

 

[KatNotKathy]

Are you seriously arguing against a correlation between people sentenced to death and people executed? Really?

And how is the fact that black folks are arrested and convicted at disproportionate rates not relevant? It's totally relevant. Why do you keep avoiding the question? Why are black people executed and on death row at a rate far exceeding their population? Why won't you just answer that?

 

[Poisonshady313]

If the people executed have no correlation to people on death row, how does that explain that 34% of people executed have been black? You keep saying that civilian demographics are irrelevant, but how do you explain that a third of the people killed are black? Like I said: 2 possibilities, either there is some irregularity (ie racism), or black people are just more criminal. Which is it?

It can't be said that there's any irregularity because there is no measure for regularity. Nobody knows how many people are supposed to be executed in a given year because there is no constant length of death row term.


If you can tell me that black people are consistently on death row for much shorter periods of time before being executed, then you might have a leg to stand on.

 

[KatNotKathy]

Ok, so nobody knows how many of each race is supposed to be on death row. So are black people just more criminal than whites? Is that why so many are on death row at a rate exceeding their population?

 

[Poisonshady313]

Are you seriously arguing against a correlation between people sentenced to death and people executed? Really?

Yes. Really.

And how is the fact that black folks are arrested and convicted at disproportionate rates not relevant? It's totally relevant.

Because that's not the question at hand. When you can wrap your head around what I'm saying, then we can discuss other things.

Why do you keep avoiding the question? Why are black people executed and on death row at a rate far exceeding their population? Why won't you just answer that?

Because it's a meaningless question.

 

[KatNotKathy]

How is it a meaningless question though? Because you don't want to answer it? How is the number of black people executed and on death row meaningless when discussing race in relation to the death penalty. You aren't making any sense.

 

[KatNotKathy]

Hey If I say that the justice system is perfectly unbiased and there is certainly no obvious bias towards arresting and convicting minorities can we get back to the fact that the death penalty in America literally kills innocent people? It's honestly getting pretty tiring asking you a question and just being told it's meaningless rather than getting an answer.

edit: not to mention I just finished off half a fifth of vodka (a 2.5th?) and I'm starting to get really fuzzy.

 

[Poisonshady313]

Ok, so nobody knows how many of each race is supposed to be on death row.

Why are you making things up and projecting them onto me? I didn't say nobody knows how many of each race is supposed to be on death row. I said nobody knows how many people (regardless of race) are supposed to be executed in a given year.

You're stuck on death row... but this conversation is about execution.

Is that why so many are on death row at a rate exceeding their population?

That's the first time you've asked that question in a meaningful way. I just hope you understand it's a completely separate issue from the claim that blacks are executed at a higher rate than whites.


To answer your question... I don't know, and neither do you. It's easy to point to the guy who says "yeah, black people are more criminally inclined" and call him a racist.... but it's dishonest to automatically assume that all peoples are going to do anything proportionate to their population.

Do you figure only 12% of the NBA ought to be black? Do you figure only 12% of college admissions ought to be black? Do you figure only 12% of a jury ought to be black? Do you figure only 12% of the work force ought to be black?


If it stands to reason that people are going to excel in some areas disproportionate to their population, they're certainly capable at failing in others, disproportionate to their population.

If whites account for 69% of the population, shouldn't they produce enough qualified and talented basketball players so as to represent 69% of the NBA? Is the NBA racist against white people?


Another factor worth considering... what are the demographics of the states that have death penalty statutes? How about the cities where most of the crime comes from within those states?

 

[Poisonshady313]

How is it a meaningless question though? Because you don't want to answer it? How is the number of black people executed and on death row meaningless when discussing race in relation to the death penalty. You aren't making any sense.

It's meaningless everytime you ask about black people are executed relative to their total population in this country for reasons I've already explained several times.

 

[Poisonshady313]

Hey If I say that the justice system is perfectly unbiased and there is certainly no obvious bias towards arresting and convicting minorities can we get back to the fact that the death penalty in America literally kills innocent people?

So first you're arguing for an irrelevant point, and now you're giving up on it for the sake of avoiding the original claim that you made about the death penalty being applied unfairly to blacks?


Maybe we should try this when you're sober.

And again, the imperfection of the prison system in general means you'll have innocent people dying in prison even without being executed... far more than are being executed, but that doesn't seem to matter to you, because you're stuck on the idea of the same thing happening sooner rather than later. Plus, when you have murderers paroled, escape, murder from within prison... you're enabling more innocent people to be killed than if you had just put the scumbag to death to begin with.

It's honestly getting pretty tiring asking you a question and just being told it's meaningless rather than getting an answer.

Its getting pretty tiring being asked a meaningless question rather than being asked a meaningful one.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I have no problem with the death penalty, but the firing squad seems a bit barbaric.

I believe that the military still uses this form of execution for treason, but I'll look it up.

 

[Smokeless Indica]

Hey If I say that the justice system is perfectly unbiased and there is certainly no obvious bias towards arresting and convicting minorities can we get back to the fact that the death penalty in America literally kills innocent people? It's honestly getting pretty tiring asking you a question and just being told it's meaningless rather than getting an answer.

edit: not to mention I just finished off half a fifth of vodka (a 2.5th?) and I'm starting to get really fuzzy.

Just wanted to say that I live in an all black neighborhood and there's this guy I know whos house got raided about 2 weeks ago. He got busted for having drugs and didn't **** happen to him. He doesn't have to go to jail.

Ok so the death penalty kills innocent people we get that. More innocents die outside the death penalty then they do on the death penalty. I still say it's neccesary so we can get rid of the sadistic psychopaths in this world.

I don't think it's a good idea to be drinking while your debating it tends to make you mean. I thought this was about debating not about you're right and the rest of us are wrong. Like I said before it's a matter about OPINION whether there should be a death penalty or not regardless of the facts. Different people are going to have different views. It's just a fact of life.