Vaccination and Religious Beliefs

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Yeah exactly. And if vaccination is not 100% protection, then they are compromising their immune systems for nothing.

Do you use this "if it's not magic, it's not worthwhile" philosophy to any other areas of your life?

Anyway, the point is we should have a right to say yes or no to vacs... I appreciate the right to self determination because its part of being human. Some people would want to take that away from us and its plain wrong.

You have that right. What you don't have is the right to put others at risk.

 

[Nietzsche]

Now if only they can come up with a vaccine for the "silent killer" that is known as stupidity.

I have an idea. We could give them their own little country, preferably on an island, and let them live their lives as vaccine-free as they want. And after a few years, when they've grown complacent, we release the hounds.

 

[McBell]

I have an idea. We could give them their own little country, preferably on an island, and let them live their lives as vaccine-free as they want. And after a few years, when they've grown complacent, we release the hounds.

What did the poor hounds do to deserve such a punishment?

 

[InChrist]

"SomeRandom said: ↑

Basically it works like this if you have a part of the population who did not vaccinate then they are viable hosts for viruses. The more viable hosts the more chance a virus has to mutate as it spreads. This mutating can potentially mean the virus becomes immune to vaccines thereby making our current vaccines useless. Ergo the vaccinated people become at risk for said mutated virus. That's why people are angry at the anti vaxxers. They actually have the potential to literally undo vaccines!!!!
In order to minimise that risk we immunise as many people as possible. If there's hardly any potential hosts for a virus then that virus has a harder time latching onto something. This reduces the chances that it can mutate."

The above is not accurate. More often than not it is the vaccines themselves and those who have been vaccinated which are infecting others with mutated and sometimes even deadlier variations of the original virus


"Over the past few years, parents of unvaccinated children have been publicly blamed for increasing cases of B. pertussis whooping cough and deaths.

This despite the fact that even the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) admits that the rise in reported whooping cough cases cannot be blamed on unvaccinated children because "they are not the driving force behind the large scale outbreaks and epidemics."1"

"In 2013, the FDA discovered that while the whooping cough vaccine may reduce symptoms in those who are vaccinated, the pertussis vaccine does not prevent infection and transmission of the disease.
In fact, you can get a series of pertussis shots and still become an asymptomatic carrier who is contagious and can spread the disease to others without even knowing it. That study effectively shattered the long-held illusion of vaccine-induced herd immunity
excerpts from:
Evolving Whooping Cough Bacteria Outsmarts Vaccines


"Measles vaccine acquired herd immunity is a dissolving myth, too.51,52,53 Public health doctors are scrambling to explain leaks in measles vaccine immunity54,55 and have come up with this lame excuse: they say they just discovered that one measles vaccinated adult in 10 is now susceptible to measles because vaccine immunity wears off.56 They call it "waning immunity."57"

"The inconvenient scientific truth about measles in Disneyland and around the world is that public health doctors do not know how many vaccinated people can be infected with measles, show few or no symptoms and transmit measles to other people.63 Government health officials do not conduct routine active surveillance of vaccinated people to find out if they are experiencing asymptomatic or atypical measles and transmitting it to others.


In addition, there are published studies demonstrating that people given live virus measles vaccine can be infected with vaccine strain measles virus and shed vaccine strain measles virus.64,65,66 Health officials do not conduct routine active surveillance of people getting live MMR vaccine to monitor for vaccine strain measles virus infection, shedding and the potential for transmission."
excerpts from :Measles in Disneyland: Third MMR Shot & Vaccine Exemption Ban

 

[SkepticThinker]

Na, I cannot agree with that, vaccinations are bad, they have caused so much adverse affects, autism being just one of them, but the old FDA keeps it all secret from the ignorant population.

Vaccinations don't cause autism.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Let's assume that there's a credible link between vaccinations and noticeable rises in various disorders(there isn't, but let's assume). Let's assume that it does it to 1 in 110 people(that's being extremely generous with the ratio in favour of your argument).

Polio, Hep A&B, whooping cough, all the stuff we have vaccinations for...will kill countless more without vaccinating than the honestly insignificant number it may hurt. I'm perfectly happy giving 1% of the population autism or what have you if it means the other 99% don't die of chicken pox or other easily prevented ailments because of people who don't understand herd immunity.

This ^^

 

[SkepticThinker]

They're preservatives. They stop the culture from dying or being overtaken by some other bacteria.


I have an autoimmune condition. I take imuno-suppressants for it. When I was at the doctor a few years ago, I caught measles from a girl who hadn't been vaccinated. That nearly killed me.

That could easily kill my 4 year old niece who suffers from cystic fibrosis. Even the common cold could kill her. I don't think stuff like that occurs to most people.

 

[philbo]

The above is not accurate. More often than not it is the vaccines themselves and those who have been vaccinated which are infecting others with mutated and sometimes even deadlier variations of the original virus

Where on earth did you get that ridiculous nugget of misinformation from? Somebody's been lying to you, please don't believe them and pass on what they're saying as fact.

..if you insist on quoting from mercola.com, I'm afraid you're going to get zero marks for credibility. Try using a source that knows what it's talking about, something peer-reviewed, perhaps?

[edit to fix ridiculous quotefail. Very sorry 90% Penguin]

 

[SkepticThinker]

I've only heard a little bit about the herd immunity. Isn't it only people who are not vaccinated that are susceptible to getting a disease?

I understand your argument but I'm also sympathetic to anti-vaxers who have had terrible experiences. I mean it isn't just a tiny amount of people who get bad reactions. I can count a lot of people I know personally who have had really strong negative reactions to vaccines, including getting the thing they were just vaccinated against. The latest example is from a friend of my mum's who did her nursing degree and started work as a nurse. She is middle aged and never in her life had the flu. She had to get a flu shot in order to work and immediately got the flu afterward. Now she gets the flu regularly. So I do sympathise with people who are afraid of the potential risks.

The flu vaccine does not contain the live flue virus so it didn't cause her to get the flu. She was likely exposed to the flu prior to getting vaccinated or caught a different strain of the flu that the vaccine wasn't made for.

The problem here is that human beings have this thing we do where we apply causation to one event that preceded another, even if there is no connection at all. It's just what we do.

Years ago, my mother went out and ate a chicken dinner at her favourite restaurant. A couple of hours later, she suffered from a burst appendix and was rushed to the hospital. To this day, my mother is completely put off by chicken dinners from that restaurant and refuses to eat it because she associates it with her terrible experience of the burst appendix. That's perfectly understandable, I think. But what is neither rational nor understandable, would be if she spent the rest of her life telling people that eating chicken dinners from that restaurant causes one's appendix to burst. Just because one thing followed after the other, doesn't mean they are in any way related.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Yes. My opinion is that you can religiously opt out of anything that truly only affects you. Vaccinations is not one of those things.

I agree with this.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Weird. Few people in Brazil have ever paid for a vaccine.

I've never paid for a vaccine here in Canada.

 

[InChrist]

Vaccinations don't cause autism.

Are you saying that because you have researched the subject or are you repeating what has been repeated so many times? I don't think the possible link between autism and the ever increasing amount of required vaccines for children can be so easily discounted.


"There are over one million children and even adults with autism and the numbers continue to grow. This is a medial disaster of monumental proportions.


The link to the vaccine program is scientifically and logically compelling but these same medical elitists refuse to listen. Like smoking and lung cancer, we have enough proof today to call a halt to the present excessive vaccine program and ban any level of mercury in vaccines.


In 1983, before the autism epidemic began, children received 10 vaccinations before attending school and the autism incidence was 1 in 10,000. Today, they are receiving 24 vaccines before 1 year and 36 by the time they attend school and the autism rate is now 1 in 150 births.


Medical “experts” have provided no other explanation for this dramatic and sudden rise in autism cases, despite a draconian effort to find one.


They attempted to say it was genetic, but geneticists were quick to respond that genetic disorders do not suddenly increase in such astronomical proportions. They then said it was because of better diagnosis, despite the fact that the diagnosis is obvious in virtually every case and that the criteria officially accepted for diagnosis has become more restrictive not less."
excerpt from:
The Danger of Excessive Vaccination During Brain Development


'Together with Christopher Shaw, a professor in the department of ophthalmology and visual sciences at UBC who also chairs the CMSRI's scientific advisory board, Dr. Tomljenovic has published a number of papers2,3,4,5,6 that suggest aluminum-containing vaccines may be unsafe.


Not surprisingly, their work has been heavily criticized. The UBC, however, has defended and stands behind Shaw's and Tomljenovic's work on aluminum toxicity.7 So what does their research show that has everyone in such a tizzy?


"In the original study we gathered data that's available from the US Department of Education about autism rates in the last couple of decades. We have done a similar analysis looking at autism rates in various other countries like UK and the Scandinavian countries.


We found that the countries that have the heaviest vaccines schedule (the children are vaccinated with a great number of vaccines) have higher autism rates compared to countries that do not vaccinate children with as many vaccines.


If you look at the temporal trend in the US, you see a significant correlation over the last three decades between the number of vaccines and autism rates. The autism numbers have been skyrocketing. They always say it's only because the diagnosis of autism is better. But that's a bogus argument because just in the last five years there's been about a 70 percent increase in autism. This is not due to better diagnostic criteria, and it sure isn't a genetic epidemic, because genes in a population do not change in a five-year span. These arguments are just silly," she says. "

excerpt from; Effects of Vaccine Adjuvants on Your Brain

 

[SomeRandom]

Congratulations: you're now susceptible to shingles for the rest of your life. The chicken pox virus is dormant in your nervous system and it can reinvigorate itself at any time, painfully inflaming your nerve endings.

I had chicken pox as a kid (I'm old enough that the chicken pox wasn't available when I was a baby). I had shingles a few years ago - it really sucks.

Oh my mother had shingles a few years ago. It really must have done a number on her because I've never known her to try to sleep that long (she gets up at the crack of dawn.) Even looking at the effects were painful.

 

[SkepticThinker]

A big problem is that it's so convincing when you hear the arguments and a lot of people don't think to look up the opposing arguments. But then again, just because proper studies haven't been done doesn't mean there isn't a link. I know there must be a logical fallacy in that statements, but what I'm getting at is that people listen to each others' stories and find that convincing enough. Like parents who said their kid was developing normally, even starting to talk and then they got their vaccines and next thing they know, the kid isn't talking anymore, they scream all the time and then they find out the kid had autism. There are so many of these stories out there that people begin to feel there must be some truth to it.

The age of onset for autism is right between 18-30 months which coincidentally happens to be right around the time children get their first vaccinations. That's the correlation you are seeing but you can't mistake it for causation.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Are you saying that because you have researched the subject or are you repeating what has been repeated so many times? I don't think the possible link between autism and the ever increasing amount of required vaccines for children can be so easily discounted.


"There are over one million children and even adults with autism and the numbers continue to grow. This is a medial disaster of monumental proportions.


The link to the vaccine program is scientifically and logically compelling but these same medical elitists refuse to listen. Like smoking and lung cancer, we have enough proof today to call a halt to the present excessive vaccine program and ban any level of mercury in vaccines.


In 1983, before the autism epidemic began, children received 10 vaccinations before attending school and the autism incidence was 1 in 10,000. Today, they are receiving 24 vaccines before 1 year and 36 by the time they attend school and the autism rate is now 1 in 150 births.


Medical “experts” have provided no other explanation for this dramatic and sudden rise in autism cases, despite a draconian effort to find one.


They attempted to say it was genetic, but geneticists were quick to respond that genetic disorders do not suddenly increase in such astronomical proportions. They then said it was because of better diagnosis, despite the fact that the diagnosis is obvious in virtually every case and that the criteria officially accepted for diagnosis has become more restrictive not less."
excerpt from:
The Danger of Excessive Vaccination During Brain Development


'Together with Christopher Shaw, a professor in the department of ophthalmology and visual sciences at UBC who also chairs the CMSRI's scientific advisory board, Dr. Tomljenovic has published a number of papers2,3,4,5,6 that suggest aluminum-containing vaccines may be unsafe.


Not surprisingly, their work has been heavily criticized. The UBC, however, has defended and stands behind Shaw's and Tomljenovic's work on aluminum toxicity.7 So what does their research show that has everyone in such a tizzy?


"In the original study we gathered data that's available from the US Department of Education about autism rates in the last couple of decades. We have done a similar analysis looking at autism rates in various other countries like UK and the Scandinavian countries.


We found that the countries that have the heaviest vaccines schedule (the children are vaccinated with a great number of vaccines) have higher autism rates compared to countries that do not vaccinate children with as many vaccines.


If you look at the temporal trend in the US, you see a significant correlation over the last three decades between the number of vaccines and autism rates. The autism numbers have been skyrocketing. They always say it's only because the diagnosis of autism is better. But that's a bogus argument because just in the last five years there's been about a 70 percent increase in autism. This is not due to better diagnostic criteria, and it sure isn't a genetic epidemic, because genes in a population do not change in a five-year span. These arguments are just silly," she says. "

excerpt from; Effects of Vaccine Adjuvants on Your Brain

I'm saying that because there are no studies linking the two, and many, many more studies showing that there is no link.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Well, one possible motivation is money. For example: Contaminated haemophilia blood products - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'm not saying that vaccines are part of a conspiracy, but I'm not saying they aren't, either. My mind hasn't been made up either way. I don't have much of a reason to trust the government or pharmaceutical corporations, though.

What would the goals of this conspiracy be though? To kill and maim everybody? I don't get it.

Seriously, I don't get it.

 

[philbo]

I'm saying that because there are no studies linking the two, and many, many more studies showing that there is no link.

^this

There is not one single credible study showing a link, and by now a truly ridiculous number proving beyond all reasonable doubt that none exists: I say a "ridiculous number" because it is ridiculous that something proven over and over again should have more studies being done because some people prefer to listen to discredited doctors and celebrities than people who actually know what they're talking about, and on both sides of the Atlantic we seem to have a media that gives more space & air time to scares than fact.

 

[SomeRandom]

The above is not accurate. More often than not it is the vaccines themselves and those who have been vaccinated which are infecting others with mutated and sometimes even deadlier variations of the original virus

Yeah, no. When someone is vaccinated their body kills the virus they are vaccinating against (often the virus is dead, therefore can't even infect you anyway, others are neutered so again can't really infect you anyway.) It is literally impossible for a vaccine to properly infect you, much less have the time and opportunity to even mutate, which is what you incorrectly suggest.

Your entire comment reeks of the same desperate attempts anti vaxers make when they want to either shirk responsibility or claim people are being unfair to them or as you imply some nefarious (global) scheme against the populace.

In reality those "different strains" are caused by people not vaccinating because they become a host and it can then mutate. Well done guys, well done

 

[SkepticThinker]

They all naturally contain formaldehyde.

Cheese contains formaldehyde AND chlorine.

Rice contains chlorine AND mercury.


Certain things in low enough doses may sound scary, but aren't as dangerous as you'd think.

Not to mention that the human body produces small amounts of formaldehyde every day.

 

[SkepticThinker]

If we are honest, the fact is we are being scared by both sides.

Vaccinations are not always safe. Thats a fact. Its true. We are warned about the 'possible' adverse reactions by the very people who promote vaccinations.

So lets be honest and at least agree that there is risk on both sides. But are we happy to live in a world where the governments decide what medical treatment we will receive. Do you really want your rights to choose to be taken away from you? Because that is what is happening now due to the powerful lobby groups who are backed by multinational pharmaceutical companies and drug producers. They are pushing to make vaccination compulsory whether you agree with it or not.

Is that the sort of world you want to live in?

Yes.