Vaccination and Religious Beliefs

[SkepticThinker]

My point is it works both ways, so we all should be able to not be or to be vaccinated, it should be our choice not someone else's, gee I got that image of Nazis again, it just wont go away.

I think we're all still waiting for you to share the statistics with us. What are the numbers? How many children have experienced the reaction you just shared with us versus the number who died terrible deaths from TB?

 

[SkepticThinker]

Yet you have not shown that this alleged mass slaughter from vaccines exists...

At best you present a few cases.

If it was the "holocaust" you claim it is, there would be a lot more dead bodies from vaccines.

So you are merely trying, in vain, to make a mountain out of a mole hill and getting upset that no one is buying your snake oil.

This ^^

 

[SkepticThinker]

Yea you can believe whatever you like, if you want to believe the lies of the Who, then that's your choice.

Why do you think WHO is lying to people? To what end?

 

[SkepticThinker]

exactly. And if pro-vaccinators believe that vaccines are going to stop them getting sick, then they may be the ones putting everyone else at risk because they may become complacent when it comes to cleanliness, hygiene and healthy eating.

Where's the evidence for this odd claim?

 

[Pegg]

Where's the evidence for this odd claim?

Ebola is spread by contact with infected bodies. Imagine if they come up with an ebola vaccine... people may actually think its ok to touch infected bodies again because they are safe due to getting the vaccine.

Cleanliness is important whether we are vaccinated or not. And if hygiene was practiced in Africa where the ebola virus has just killed thousands of people, there would have been a lot less deaths from it
Same goes for the the time when the spanish flu or back death killed many people...lack of good hygenic practices is what spread it around.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Ebola is spread by contact with infected bodies. Imagine if they come up with an ebola vaccine... people may actually think its ok to touch infected bodies again because they are safe due to getting the vaccine.

Cleanliness is important whether we are vaccinated or not. And if hygiene was practiced in Africa where the ebola virus has just killed thousands of people, there would have been a lot less deaths from it
Same goes for the the time when the spanish flu or back death killed many people...lack of good hygenic practices is what spread it around.

So your evidence is a hypothetical situation you just made up?

 

[Pegg]

So your evidence is a hypothetical situation you just made up?

Its not hypothetical, its fact.

unclean practices spread disease. Its that simple.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Its not hypothetical, its fact.

unclean practices spread disease. Its that simple.

You said this:

"And if pro-vaccinators believe that vaccines are going to stop them getting sick, then they may be the ones putting everyone else at risk because they may become complacent when it comes to cleanliness, hygiene and healthy eating."

I asked for evidence of that and you gave me a hypothetical situation. If what you are saying is true, wouldn't everyone in say, North America be wallowing in filth right now, given that most of us have been being vaccinated for the last 50+ years? I see how many deadly diseases have been eradicated, but I don't see a lot of random people handling infected dead bodies and such so I have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[Sapiens]

Ebola is spread by contact with infected bodies. Imagine if they come up with an ebola vaccine... people may actually think its ok to touch infected bodies again because they are safe due to getting the vaccine.

Cleanliness is important whether we are vaccinated or not. And if hygiene was practiced in Africa where the ebola virus has just killed thousands of people, there would have been a lot less deaths from it
Same goes for the the time when the spanish flu or back death killed many people...lack of good hygenic practices is what spread it around.

Sorry, you simply do not know what you are talking about. The Spanish Flu was, epidemiological, the result of the changes in world-wide transport, the end of WWI and the way in which the war had overtaxed the medical infrastructure.

There are three promising Ebola vaccines in testing right now: one that uses modified versions of a human cold virus and the smallpox virus to carry bits of Ebola's genetic material that should incite an immune response against the Ebola virus; one that is made of a harmless cold virus that affects chimpanzees, but is coated with proteins from two strains of the Ebola virus, the Zaire strain and the Sudan strain (this one has made it through Phase One trials); and one using a virus that mainly infects animals, called the vesicular stomatitis virus (VSV). In this vaccine, one gene of VSV has been replaced with the gene that codes for the outer protein of the Zaire Ebola strain.

Cleanliness, unless by that you mean full hazmat gear, is almost irrelevant and useless, the Ebola virus is far too contagious, but a vaccine will permit people to come in contact with the Ebola virus and not contract the disease.

 

[Nietzsche]

Sorry, you simply do not know what you are talking about. The Spanish Flu was, epidemiological, the result of the changes in world-wide transport, the end of WWI and the way in which the war had overtaxed the medical infrastructure.

There are three promising Ebola vaccines in testing right now: one that uses modified versions of a human cold virus and the smallpox virus to carry bits of Ebola's genetic material that should incite an immune response against the Ebola virus; one that is made of a harmless cold virus that affects chimpanzees, but is coated with proteins from two strains of the Ebola virus, the Zaire strain and the Sudan strain (this one has made it through Phase One trials); and one using a virus that mainly infects animals, called the vesicular stomatitis virus (VSV). In this vaccine, one gene of VSV has been replaced with the gene that codes for the outer protein of the Zaire Ebola strain.

Cleanliness, unless by that you mean full hazmat gear, is almost irrelevant and useless, the Ebola virus is far too contagious, but a vaccine will permit people to come in contact with the Ebola virus and not contract the disease.

Careful, you might hurt him with your "evidence" and "facts" and "studies" and "reason" and just generally not being the sort to wear tinfoil.

 

[Levite]

Hi everyone,
it's recently come to my attention that a number of common vaccinations contain cells from aborted fetuses. But I'm also aware that most people, including religious people, get vaccinated. I have a Christin friend who is a Pharmacist and who is anti-vax specifically because of this ingredient. But how common is it for religious people who are against abortion to get themselves and their children vaccinated?

Are you one of these people or are you a religious person who avoids vaccination for religious reasons?

First of all, as I am sure others have mentioned-- I haven't gone through all 20something pages of this thread yet-- it is a gross distortion of facts to suggest that vaccines contain cells from aborted fetuses. There are a couple of vaccines which are cultured in a culture incorporating DNA from human cell lines begun in the early 1960s, from-- among other sources-- fetal lung tissue. That is both irrelevant to the majority of vaccines, and not seriously defensible as a moral objection to the vaccines that are so cultured.

Second of all, as a Jew, I consider the saving of human life to be paramount. Vaccines save lives. There is, therefore, no religious foundation from my point of view to refuse to vaccinate one's children.

Corollary to that, my position, like various other halachists (jurists of Jewish Law), is that abortion in and of itself is not necessarily unethical. The majority of sources in our classical legal tradition make clear that a fetus is not a person-- not until it is born. There may be any number of situations in which abortion is unobjectionable, ethically and legally speaking. In any case, the use of fetal tissue to produce life-saving medical treatments is of such potential value that, even if one did have moral qualms about some of the abortions that take place every year in this country, that should still not be reason enough to suppress the medical treatments that result from fetal cell usage, considering that the lives they save are people.

 

[Eliab ben Benjamin]

If required for modern vaccines, most of the Foetal stem cells can be harvested from
the umbilicus or placenta remaining after the baby is born alive and well ...

 

[SomeRandom]

Cleanliness is important whether we are vaccinated or not.

Obviously hygiene matters, (short of wearing a completely sanitized bubble, though it's not really the strongest defense) but it's actually important that you come into contact with germs and dirt. Especially at a young age. With all our cleanliness and sanitation in the modern era (some people won't even allow their kids to play in the mud these days!) we've started to create "superbugs." This uber cleanliness approach actually does weaken the immune system.

See, an immune system is powerful, but it's not something born with all the information it needs, even if it's super health. In order for it to actually know what to do, it needs to come into contact with a virus. This gives it the information it needs in order to properly fight against it. So the next time it comes into contact with it, the immune system remembers it and annihilates it.
Having your kid eat a small amount of dirt, for example, is probably a lot more beneficial to the immune system than if you were to ban the child from doing so. Because it is giving information (albeit incomplete without a virus or simulation virus) to the immune system, which then stores it.

A vaccine is very similar in a way. It is not a real infection, but it mimics or simulates an infection (sometimes even with mild symptoms) which is considered a safer option than just getting infected by something so you have immunity next time (because some viruses leave you dead) and that information is then stored by the system so when it comes into contact with the same (or a very slightly different strain of the) virus it can just destroy it.

When an unvaccinated person gets a disease, it's the real thing straight up. Which makes the learning curve much steeper for the immune system. This means the immune system first has to figure out what the disease actually is, then it has to come up with a strategy to defeat it. This takes a lot longer if it hasn't had even a simulation, because it's essentially trying to figure everything out on the fly, without any previous "memories" or information if you prefer to help it. This makes the virus last longer in the body and it can then mutate (mutations are hard to predict) and it will be different by the time it gets to another person. And on and on the cycle goes until the virus is something completely different and we have to try and fight it all over again.

 

[Shak34]

I can see both sides of to vaccinate and the not vaccinate. I have chosen to get my kids the same vaccines that I got as a child, but have avoided a lot of the newer ones. I would like for them to be out there a little longer I don't want to feel like I let my kids be guinea pigs. If one of these new vaccine ended up hurting them in someway I would feel like a bad parent. I don't have any religion other than a belief in the existence of god, so that hasn't had any effect on my choices to avoid newer vaccines.

 

[Poisonshady313]

I can see both sides of to vaccinate and the not vaccinate. I have chosen to get my kids the same vaccines that I got as a child, but have avoided a lot of the newer ones. I would like for them to be out there a little longer I don't want to feel like I let my kids be guinea pigs. If one of these new vaccine ended up hurting them in someway I would feel like a bad parent.

If abstaining from a new vaccine ended up with your child contracting the disease for which you refused to vaccinate, how would you feel?

 

[Poisonshady313]

I can see both sides of to vaccinate and the not vaccinate. I have chosen to get my kids the same vaccines that I got as a child, but have avoided a lot of the newer ones. I would like for them to be out there a little longer I don't want to feel like I let my kids be guinea pigs.

How old does a vaccine need to be before you'll trust it?

 

[Shak34]

If abstaining from a new vaccine ended up with your child contracting the disease for which you refused to vaccinate, how would you feel?

If they contracted a disease I would still feel awful and probably blame myself.

How old does a vaccine need to be before you'll trust it?

Old enough to know if there are any side effects, which honestly I really don't know what that would be.

 

[Vishvavajra]

Its not hypothetical, its fact.

unclean practices spread disease. Its that simple.

You know good and well that's not what he was referring to. You basically argued that having laws against burglary will only make people more complacent when it comes to locking their doors. When the mind-numbing illogic of that was called into question, you protested that having your house robbed is indeed very bad.

Not that I'm surprised. Anti-vax conspiracy theorists are the only people I know who can make young-earth creationists look reasonable by comparison.

Here's a nice cartoon I found, for those who haven't yet contracted a terminal case of the brain-eater.

 

[Vishvavajra]

I actually got two MMRs, since some bureaucratic screw-ups lost my records (never mind that I wouldn't have been able to get that far without having been vaccinated, but whatever). Both times I managed to avoid contracting vampirism, or growing a second head, or being possessed by the spirit of a dead Nazi, or whatever it is that the conspiracy theorists think happens when people get vaccines. I must be a statistical anomaly. Can you imagine being like 99% of the population twice in a row?* I mean, what are the chances?

*Before someone replies to say something about the other 1%, let me point out that they too are still with us. They just spent a while feeling like a dumb college student the day after a keg party.

 

[Izdaari]

I am pro-vaccination. I am also a pro-choice Christian. I have no conflict over this.