Vaccination and Religious Beliefs

[Baladas]

I actually got two MMRs, since some bureaucratic screw-ups lost my records (never mind that I wouldn't have been able to get that far without having been vaccinated, but whatever). Both times I managed to avoid contracting vampirism, or growing a second head, or being possessed by the spirit of a dead Nazi, or whatever it is that the conspiracy theorists think happens when people get vaccines. I must be a statistical anomaly. Can you imagine being like 99% of the population twice in a row?* I mean, what are the chances?

*Before someone replies to say something about the other 1%, let me point out that they too are still with us. They just spent a while feeling like a dumb college student the day after a keg party.

I actually did contact vampirism from being vaccinated. However, I consider that to be a bonus.

 

[psychoslice]

I think we're all still waiting for you to share the statistics with us. What are the numbers? How many children have experienced the reaction you just shared with us versus the number who died terrible deaths from TB?

Well you seem to know it all, so you tell me ?.

 

[psychoslice]

I am pro-vaccination. I am also a pro-choice Christian. I have no conflict over this.

So, what does that really mean ?.

 

[psychoslice]

Why do you think WHO is lying to people? To what end?

Money baby, money !.

 

[philbo]

Money baby, money !.

So who's making all this money? Really, who? "Money baby, money" is not an answer, it's avoiding an answer, unless you can explain why thousands of people with no overt financial interest come to the same conclusions.

Tell you what.. latest cohort study, 95,000 children and Autistic Spectrum Disorder diagnoses: JAMA Network | JAMA | Autism Occurrence by MMR Vaccine Status Among US Children With Older Siblings With and Without Autism

Conclusions and Relevance In this large sample of privately insured children with older siblings, receipt of the MMR vaccine was not associated with increased risk of ASD, regardless of whether older siblings had ASD. These findings indicate no harmful association between MMR vaccine receipt and ASD even among children already at higher risk for ASD.

..so are the authors of this study lying because they're being paid to do so, secure in the knowledge that anyone else who looks at the same 95,000 children will also be paid off to draw the same conclusions?

Please explain how in your money-driven conspiracy theory world such a result could be obtained.

As an aside, for people with an interest in this sort of thing, the discussion section of that paper has some quite mind-bending analyses of how parental decision-making on age of vaccination can affect the relative risk numbers to make it look like the vaccine actually has a protective effect. Makes sense, but you have to really think about it (or, at least, I did).

 

[psychoslice]

So who's making all this money? Really, who? "Money baby, money" is not an answer, it's avoiding an answer, unless you can explain why thousands of people with no overt financial interest come to the same conclusions.

Tell you what.. latest cohort study, 95,000 children and Autistic Spectrum Disorder diagnoses: JAMA Network | JAMA | Autism Occurrence by MMR Vaccine Status Among US Children With Older Siblings With and Without Autism


..so are the authors of this study lying because they're being paid to do so, secure in the knowledge that anyone else who looks at the same 95,000 children will also be paid off to draw the same conclusions?

Please explain how in your money-driven conspiracy theory world such a result could be obtained.

As an aside, for people with an interest in this sort of thing, the discussion section of that paper has some quite mind-bending analyses of how parental decision-making on age of vaccination can affect the relative risk numbers to make it look like the vaccine actually has a protective effect. Makes sense, but you have to really think about it (or, at least, I did).

Na, its all money baby, if you like it or not.

 

[psychoslice]

Yeah yeah I know FEMA is building Death Camps, public education is communism, Vaccination is a plot to insert microchips or diseases into our kids and the Democrats are reptilians.

If you don't "believe in vaccination"(that's already way too retarded to actually write down) then don't take your tetanus shot, cut yourself on a nice rusty nail and well... let nature sort it out.


Oh and I am a chemist(MSc) currently part of a research group about ECM, so yeah I most probably know more about something like this than you.

Who cares what you are, that doesn't mean your right or know what you talking about, does it ???.

 

[psychoslice]

So who's making all this money? Really, who? "Money baby, money" is not an answer, it's avoiding an answer, unless you can explain why thousands of people with no overt financial interest come to the same conclusions.

Tell you what.. latest cohort study, 95,000 children and Autistic Spectrum Disorder diagnoses: JAMA Network | JAMA | Autism Occurrence by MMR Vaccine Status Among US Children With Older Siblings With and Without Autism


..so are the authors of this study lying because they're being paid to do so, secure in the knowledge that anyone else who looks at the same 95,000 children will also be paid off to draw the same conclusions?

Please explain how in your money-driven conspiracy theory world such a result could be obtained.

As an aside, for people with an interest in this sort of thing, the discussion section of that paper has some quite mind-bending analyses of how parental decision-making on age of vaccination can affect the relative risk numbers to make it look like the vaccine actually has a protective effect. Makes sense, but you have to really think about it (or, at least, I did).

Your the only one who has to think about it, to the rest of us its just normal.

 

[philbo]

Na, its all money baby, if you like it or not.

So where's the money going?

Whether I like it or not is irrelevant - I think you're imagining some great money-driven conspiracy, though this still cannot explain how results like that cohort study could be obtained. Do you think the researchers were falsifying their data?

 

[philbo]

Your the only one who has to think about it, to the rest of us its just normal.

*You're

In other words, you didn't even read, let alone understand.. Not surprised, given that to hold the beliefs you do requires you to be functionally innumerate.

 

[psychoslice]

So where's the money going?

Whether I like it or not is irrelevant - I think you're imagining some great money-driven conspiracy, though this still cannot explain how results like that cohort study could be obtained. Do you think the researchers were falsifying their data?

I think that the whole thing is all a lie.

 

[philbo]

I think that the whole thing is all a lie.

What do you actually mean by that?

..that the 95,000 children's records that the researchers looked through are made up? That the children concerned simply don't exist?

 

[Marisa]

"Conclusions and RelevanceIn this large sample of privately insured children with older siblings, receipt of the MMR vaccine was not associated with increased risk of ASD, regardless of whether older siblings had ASD. These findings indicate no harmful association between MMR vaccine receipt and ASD even among children already at higher risk for ASD."
JAMA Network | JAMA | Autism Occurrence by MMR Vaccine Status Among US Children With Older Siblings With and Without Autism

Rates of Autism have gone up because we are researching what it is and learning to identify it better, which is completely logical if we are researching and learning more about a thing.

 

[philbo]

Rates of Autism have gone up because we are researching what it is and learning to identify it better, which is completely logical if we are researching and learning more about a thing.

That is a different question to the one answered in that study - I did read an article recently which tried to quantify whether increased diagnosis is solely responsible for the increase in number of cases, but they didn't have enough data to draw a satisfactory conclusion: there are certainly diagnoses of ASD made today which 50 years ago wouldn't even have been considered, and even ten years ago might have been ignored, but because they would've been overlooked 50 years ago, we don't actually know how many there were.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

My point is it works both ways, so we all should be able to not be or to be vaccinated, it should be our choice not someone else's, gee I got that image of Nazis again, it just wont go away.

If you're going to put my nephew at risk (he can't have most vaccines because of an egg allergy) or incubate a future outbreak of a new strain of a disease in some anti-vax commune, shouldn't I get a say? Why shouldn't I get a voice in a decision to put the people I care about and me at risk?

 

[Marisa]

That is a different question to the one answered in that study - I did read an article recently which tried to quantify whether increased diagnosis is solely responsible for the increase in number of cases, but they didn't have enough data to draw a satisfactory conclusion: there are certainly diagnoses of ASD made today which 50 years ago wouldn't even have been considered, and even ten years ago might have been ignored, but because they would've been overlooked 50 years ago, we don't actually know how many there were.

"Based on the abovementioned research, approximately 53% percent of the increase in autism prevalence over time may be explained by changes in diagnosis (26%), greater awareness (16%), and an increase in parental age (11%). While this research is beginning to help us understand the increase in autism prevalence, half of the increase is still unexplainedand not due to better diagnosis, greater awareness, and social factors alone. Environmental factors, and their interactions with genetic susceptibilities, are likely contributors to increase in prevalence and are the subject of numerous research projects currently supported by Autism Speaks."
What is Causing the Increase in Autism Prevalence? | Autism Speaks Official Blog

 

[philbo]

There's a lot more data available from the last 20 years than earlier - sorry, I didn't bookmark the article I was reading, it was trying to look back to the first half of the 20th century rather than 1990s onwards.

But, the one thing we can state with very high confidence is that the increase in autism is not from vaccination.

 

[Marisa]

There's a lot more data available from the last 20 years than earlier - sorry, I didn't bookmark the article I was reading, it was trying to look back to the first half of the 20th century rather than 1990s onwards.

But, the one thing we can state with very high confidence is that the increase in autism is not from vaccination.

Spot on. If you come across the article again, I'd be interested in reading it.

 

[philbo]

Just spent a bit of lunch reading the article you posted..

it is estimated that 26.4% (95% CI 16.25–36.48) of the increased autism caseload in California is uniquely associated with diagnostic change through a single pathway—individuals previously diagnosed with MR.

..that 26.4% of the increased autism diagnosis is *only* from individuals who would have been previously diagnosed with "mental retardation"

Which, given that this is not the only diagnosis which today might be given as ASD, leaves a far bigger uncertainty for the overall proportion of the increase which could be explained by changing diagnostic criteria: it's an "as a bare minimum", not an "approximately"

 

[Flankerl]

Who cares what you are, that doesn't mean your right or know what you talking about, does it ???.

Great reply 10/10.

Good to see that our reptilian overlords haven't killed you yet.