Vaccination and Religious Beliefs

[philbo]

But can't your ego realize that is just what I feel about you ?.

It's not a question of ego, more of credibility of sources: you've repeated "it's the money", ignoring that significant portions of the research are carried out by people without any financial stake in vaccines. It's simply dishonest on your behalf to do this.

..and you post youtube videos as though they have any meaning whatsoever. People clicking "thumbs up" on youtube does not constitute peer review. The plural of "anecdote" is not "data".

 

[psychoslice]

It's not a question of ego, more of credibility of sources: you've repeated "it's the money", ignoring that significant portions of the research are carried out by people without any financial stake in vaccines. It's simply dishonest on your behalf to do this.

..and you post youtube videos as though they have any meaning whatsoever. People clicking "thumbs up" on youtube does not constitute peer review. The plural of "anecdote" is not "data".

How dare you say that that video above as no meaning, your heartless, this is a story from parents who have had tragedies' from vaccines, they don't need data, they have experienced first hand what this crap does, the data that you so need, is manipulated, wake up for god sake.

 

[philbo]

How dare you say that that video above as no meaning, your heartless, this is a story from parents who have had tragedies' from vaccines, they don't need data, they have experienced first hand what this crap does, the data that you so need, is manipulated, wake up for god sake.

Maybe I am heartless in wanting to believe what the studies show, not some anecdotes from people who believe what they have no proof for. But it is better to be heartless and recognize that they're wrong, than emotive and put millions more people at risk by reversing possibly the most successful public health policy the world has seen.

Posting youtube videos in support of your arguments is one step short of quoting from whale.to: in the context of public health it is completely and utterly meaningless.

I am fully awake, thank you - the difference between us is that I'm numerate. I can count. I can read. You still haven't answered how you think those 95,000 children in the study I linked to earlier had marginally lower incidences of autism when vaccinated than not: "money" is not an answer, unless you can provide evidence that the people doing the study had any link to vaccine producers. Basically, you've got emotive rubbish based on feelings and a massive global conspiracy vs innumerable investigations, all of which show vaccines are not harmful and prevent disease.

 

[Nietzsche]

How dare you say that that video above as no meaning, your heartless, this is a story from parents who have had tragedies' from vaccines, they don't need data, they have experienced first hand what this crap does, the data that you so need, is manipulated, wake up for god sake.

And a bunch of largely uneducated individuals whos' entire arguments are flawed from the start due to strong emotions & seeking an answer for things they don't understand. "First-hand experience" is great if you've also got training. This is EXACTLY how religious movements tend to start. An uneducated person seeing something & mistaking the cause or reason because they don't know any better. The handful PHDs on the anti-vaxx side rarely have medical degrees relating to disease treatment. Because anyone who actually studies how the immune system works or how illnesses come about & propagate know vaccinations save lives.

This is no different than Creationists parading around scientists who endorse creationism. You never see a Biologist, an Astronomer, a Geologist, an Anthropologist, so on & so forth endorse Creationism. Because they know better. Their supporters with PhDs are always in entirely unrelated fields.

 

[McBell]

But can't your ego realize that is just what I feel about you ?.

What lies have I told?

Either point them out or apologize for your lie.

 

[McBell]

How dare you say that that video above as no meaning, your heartless, this is a story from parents who have had tragedies' from vaccines, they don't need data, they have experienced first hand what this crap does, the data that you so need, is manipulated, wake up for god sake.

I would prefer to but the blame where it actually belongs, not blindly blame vaccines and whine about how people who do not jump on the emotional band wagon are heartless.

no matter.
You have already destroyed any credibility you had.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Now that's ridiculers.

No, your false claim that vaccines cause autism is.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

THE GREATER GOOD weaves together the stories of families whose lives have been forever changed by #vaccination.

Alcohol has destroyed more lives. Capitalism has caused far more destruction. Automobiles have the statistics to support the idea that they are deadly.
Vaccines, while some allergic reactions will happen (and, of course, all medications come with that risk - I just went through a bout of terrible migraines for a couple of weeks while on Risperidone), but Big Macs cause more heart problems than vaccines do allergic reactions. Coca-Cola has played its part in causing more diabetes than vaccines have ruined lives. America, unlike places with no polio vaccine, does not have a problem with polio. I am very thankful and glad for this.
And, if, even if vaccines cause Autism, I don't mind. Actually because of it I am very intelligent, I have natural abilities with art, and I am naturally inclined to insist that something have facts and hard data to back it up rather than going on emotional tangents that are very prone to being wrong. I may struggle socially, but it's more than made up for in other areas. Such as, I did not read the book for my last test, I barely studied for it, but because I done well enough on my last two tests in that class I only needed a D on the test to maintain my overall A for the class, and I got an A on the test anyways.
And having no empathy has freed me from being caught up in the emotion stuff of other people. I may have to work harder at understanding them, and effectively communicating verbally, but someone else's bad day will not get me down.
Actually, being in school has revealed to me why so many with Asperger's claim it is the next step in human evolution.

 

[psychoslice]

Maybe I am heartless in wanting to believe what the studies show, not some anecdotes from people who believe what they have no proof for. But it is better to be heartless and recognize that they're wrong, than emotive and put millions more people at risk by reversing possibly the most successful public health policy the world has seen.

Posting youtube videos in support of your arguments is one step short of quoting from whale.to: in the context of public health it is completely and utterly meaningless.

I am fully awake, thank you - the difference between us is that I'm numerate. I can count. I can read. You still haven't answered how you think those 95,000 children in the study I linked to earlier had marginally lower incidences of autism when vaccinated than not: "money" is not an answer, unless you can provide evidence that the people doing the study had any link to vaccine producers. Basically, you've got emotive rubbish based on feelings and a massive global conspiracy vs innumerable investigations, all of which show vaccines are not harmful and prevent disease.

Na, there's no hope for you at all.

 

[psychoslice]

And a bunch of largely uneducated individuals whos' entire arguments are flawed from the start due to strong emotions & seeking an answer for things they don't understand. "First-hand experience" is great if you've also got training. This is EXACTLY how religious movements tend to start. An uneducated person seeing something & mistaking the cause or reason because they don't know any better. The handful PHDs on the anti-vaxx side rarely have medical degrees relating to disease treatment. Because anyone who actually studies how the immune system works or how illnesses come about & propagate know vaccinations save lives.

This is no different than Creationists parading around scientists who endorse creationism. You never see a Biologist, an Astronomer, a Geologist, an Anthropologist, so on & so forth endorse Creationism. Because they know better. Their supporters with PhDs are always in entirely unrelated fields.

I think you and others are treating this whole thing as a religion, your god being the FDA, and whoever else is involved in this lie.

 

[psychoslice]

What lies have I told?

Either point them out or apologize for your lie.

I will never apologies to you, you don't deserve it, you are against just about everything.

 

[psychoslice]

Alcohol has destroyed more lives. Capitalism has caused far more destruction. Automobiles have the statistics to support the idea that they are deadly.
Vaccines, while some allergic reactions will happen (and, of course, all medications come with that risk - I just went through a bout of terrible migraines for a couple of weeks while on Risperidone), but Big Macs cause more heart problems than vaccines do allergic reactions. Coca-Cola has played its part in causing more diabetes than vaccines have ruined lives. America, unlike places with no polio vaccine, does not have a problem with polio. I am very thankful and glad for this.
And, if, even if vaccines cause Autism, I don't mind. Actually because of it I am very intelligent, I have natural abilities with art, and I am naturally inclined to insist that something have facts and hard data to back it up rather than going on emotional tangents that are very prone to being wrong. I may struggle socially, but it's more than made up for in other areas. Such as, I did not read the book for my last test, I barely studied for it, but because I done well enough on my last two tests in that class I only needed a D on the test to maintain my overall A for the class, and I got an A on the test anyways.
And having no empathy has freed me from being caught up in the emotion stuff of other people. I may have to work harder at understanding them, and effectively communicating verbally, but someone else's bad day will not get me down.
Actually, being in school has revealed to me why so many with Asperger's claim it is the next step in human evolution.

Now your only making excuses.

 

[Nietzsche]

I think you and others are treating this whole thing as a religion, your god being the FDA, and whoever else is involved in this lie.

Interesting. So you're accepting that there is no one with a credible education in a pertinent field to back you up? And that your position is founded entirely on an emotional, rather than logic or fact-based response? There's no shame in wanting to blame something, in wanting to find out why you & others are screwed up. But that doesn't mean you can ignore all facts to the contrary because they go against what you feel rather than what is known.

If anyone is treating this like a faith, it's you. You're going on gut-feeling, emotional outburst & genuine, understandable grief. But that is also all you have. Your facts & figures are composed by people not unlike you, largely anyway. Something went wrong, and they picked the easiest thing to blame. Manipulated by mostly well-meaning quacks and a few snake-oil salesmen. It's sad, it really is. It's no different than someone who becomes a racist because some black guys who happened to be thugs shot their father, brother or other family. Their pain is very real. And to them their conclusion makes perfect sense. And they will likely never be swayed from that view because they center their whole existence around it.

That's what you've done. You experienced something horrible, through some manner or another decided a vaccination you were given must have been the cause and you can't change your mind because it would require rejecting everything you think you know about yourself, and that's far more frightening(whether you know it or not) than just accepting your wrong.

I am sorry. But just as I feel for someone who loses a loved one to a black gang, I can only empathize up to the point they start blaming all black people for it, despite all evidence to the contrary.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Now your only making excuses.

What excuses am I making? Overall, my knowledge of the English language is probably better than yours. My IQ is probably a lot higher than yours. I have to work extra hard at understanding and reading social things, but pictorial metaphors come very easy for me. Reading an author who is known to be more difficult, such as Nietzsche, Heidegger, or Foucault, comes much easier for me because I see the Bentham's Panopticon in my head as the All Seeing Eye, and the blond beast of prey, to me at least, is very obviously a lion as what other beast of prey is so powerful and so blond? (I also know the difference between blond and blonde without having to look it up) I see Das Man as every jack *** out their, and I can easily picture Dasein as the ubermensch. Aspies do not typically do well with philosophy, but I find it gives me a plethora of examples to attach the abstract to.
Now, again I ask, what excuses? I have admitted, in many ways and several forms, that I do have certain difficulties in this life, and that I do work to overcome them. What about this is an excuse? I could choose to remain a miserably heap of flesh, making excuses about how I can reasonably expect those around me to not get as well as expecting them to not make an effort to even get to understand me, but that does not mean I live a life of "woe is me." Actually, outside of here, I hardly ever reveal that I even have Asperger's because I'd rather be treated as a normal person, even if I have to ask someone to clarify what they meant when everybody else so easily and apparently understood.

 

[psychoslice]

Interesting. So you're accepting that there is no one with a credible education in a pertinent field to back you up? And that your position is founded entirely on an emotional, rather than logic or fact-based response? There's no shame in wanting to blame something, in wanting to find out why you & others are screwed up. But that doesn't mean you can ignore all facts to the contrary because they go against what you feel rather than what is known.

If anyone is treating this like a faith, it's you. You're going on gut-feeling, emotional outburst & genuine, understandable grief. But that is also all you have. Your facts & figures are composed by people not unlike you, largely anyway. Something went wrong, and they picked the easiest thing to blame. Manipulated by mostly well-meaning quacks and a few snake-oil salesmen. It's sad, it really is. It's no different than someone who becomes a racist because some black guys who happened to be thugs shot their father, brother or other family. Their pain is very real. And to them their conclusion makes perfect sense. And they will likely never be swayed from that view because they center their whole existence around it.

That's what you've done. You experienced something horrible, through some manner or another decided a vaccination you were given must have been the cause and you can't change your mind because it would require rejecting everything you think you know about yourself, and that's far more frightening(whether you know it or not) than just accepting your wrong.

I am sorry. But just as I feel for someone who loses a loved one to a black gang, I can only empathize up to the point they start blaming all black people for it, despite all evidence to the contrary.

Na, you talking crap. sorry.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Na, you talking crap. sorry.

You claim we're full of crap, but that is not how it is from my point of view.
You said "tell that to the parents of a kid who is autistic," or something to that extent, but, me, being on the high-functioning spectrum of autism, previously Asperger's before the DSM V, I am driven to facts, logic, and empirical data like a moth to the flames. No, I'm not perfect. But you sources are not holding up. You claim autism is caused by vaccines, yet, at the same time, I have read books by doctors, who specialize in autism and Asperger's, who seem to know a very great deal about me without even knowing I exist, and they do not state that vaccines cause Autism. Your sources, on the other hand, started with a guy who flat out lied. You entire case that autism causes vaccines is based on a lie. He did no research, he gathered no empirical data, he put in such a crappy effort that he lost his license to practice.
Now, think this through logically. Your sources claim polio was "on its way out," despite the fact the only places that have problems with polio are places that are not using the polio vaccine. Your sources say their are tremendous risks, but these sources do not appear credible (yes, there is a way to objectively evaluate online source. Its not 100, but Snopes is academically credible even though it doesn't appear to be at first glance, but you have turned up sources that have, at best, had imposter look-alike sources).
If the vaccines compromise the immune system, why are more people not sick? If the vaccines contain lethal metals in them, why are people not displaying symptoms of mercury poisoning? If they are such a great risk, why do so very few display any signs of an allergic reaction?

 

[philbo]

Na, there's no hope for you at all.

Why, because I would rather trust evidence than feelings?

I'm sure it feels better to be ruled by ones heart and believing whatever makes you feel good, but using your brain means there's actually a chance of getting solutions that work. Such as vaccines: you really do have to be either mindbogglingly ignorant or functionally innumerate to think that vaccines don't prevent the diseases they're designed to.

And as for harm... Tell me, if you really believe vaccines cause autism, what do you think causes it in the equal proportion of people who are diagnosed with autism without being vaccinated?

 

[Theweirdtophat]

It's the kind of mind set that's beyond asinine. "I demand evidence or it doesn't exist. lolz" I guess seeing families actually suffer from the vaccines aren't enough evidence. Do you need everything on a sheet of paper?

 

[philbo]

It's the kind of mind set that's beyond asinine. "I demand evidence or it doesn't exist. lolz" I guess seeing families actually suffer from the vaccines aren't enough evidence. Do you need everything on a sheet of paper?

No, that's not what it is: seeing families suffering isn't evidence of anything other than suffering. If as many unvaccinated people show the same symptoms as vaccinated ones, it suggests that the cause is not vaccination.

This isn't "I demand evidence or it doesn't exist", this is "I have seen evidence and it proves the cause is not what you say it is".

"Beyond asinine"?? Oddly enough, I call it being numerate and being able to count.

 

[Theweirdtophat]

No, that's not what it is: seeing families suffering isn't evidence of anything other than suffering. If as many unvaccinated people show the same symptoms as vaccinated ones, it suggests that the cause is not vaccination.

This isn't "I demand evidence or it doesn't exist", this is "I have seen evidence and it proves the cause is not what you say it is".

"Beyond asinine"?? Oddly enough, I call it being numerate and being able to count.

Families are fine before they take it. They get sick after they take it. Let's put two and two together. It's not that difficult to understand. It's incredibly rude that when they try to present evidence, you get people, who think they know what they're talking about, calling others liars. Not every drug was successfully tested, what makes you think that all of the vaccines are actually tested. Some aren't and cause more harm.