Vaccination and Religious Beliefs

[philbo]

Okay ... I have admitted the possibility that there can be adverse reactions and unforeseen consequences to vaccinations. But these are very small minority; and those that can be confirmed ... well, honestly, I haven't ran across any. But for sake of argument, I will hypothetically capitulate that sometimes, vaccinations go wrong or have unintended damaging consequences.

The fact that a small percentage of people are allergic to tomatoes does not constitute evidence that tomatoes are poisonous; and the percentage of people with tomato allergies are much higher than adverse reactions to vaccinations.

The CDC monitors adverse reactions to vaccinations: CDC - VAERS - Vaccine Safety - receiving 30,000 reports annually with only 10-15% of those determined as "serious". Yet, there are 10 MILLION vaccinations administered each year and this number only accounts for those who were vaccinated before 1 year old!

So, if we were to assume that all these 30,000 annual reports applied only to children who were vaccinated before 1 year of age (which is totally inaccurate), then we have a risk of adverse reactions of .03% -- and out of that .03%, only 10-15% is serious ....

What do these numbers tell you? They tell you that vaccination is incredibly safe.

What do these 30,000 reports tell you?

That in spite of how safe and effective vaccination is, we have things to learn to make them even safer.

Again, the numbers and the evidence simply does not support the irrational fear ...

Plus (and it's a VERY big plus) VAERS data is not a repository of harmful effects caused by vaccines (as so many lying scumbags try to make out) - it is a repository for all negative events which happen at some point around vaccination. Basically by reporting everything, if there is systemic harm coming from a vaccine it will show very quickly.

There are entries in VAERS where people have died in car crashes soon after vaccination (for a while, there was even one of someone turning into the Hulk after being vaccinated - a stunt by a blogger showing that there are no filters when adding to VAERS).

Vaccines are not just safe, they're many, many times safer than loads of other daily risks - if you think vaccines are dangerous, you'd never get in a plane, train let alone a car. You'd move out of America to somewhere with fewer guns.. all these risks are huge when compared to the risk from vaccines.

If some vaccinations were as great as you say they were, than where does the fear come from then?

I've already answered that god knows how many times in this thread. Do you really need it answered yet again?

 

[psychoslice]

Look, if you're vaccinating millions, then yes it can be a coincidence. When the same things happen to the same proportion of children who don't get a vaccine that suggests very strongly indeed that it is a coincidence.

The "feeling" is that one is caused by the other, and it is a natural feeling. Humans do this sort of thing all the time - two things happen in close proximity, they assume one causes the other. And when you have literally hundreds of millions of vaccinations, you are absolutely guaranteed to have other things happening at the same time: there will be hundreds of one-in-a-million events occurring at roughly the same time as vaccination, because that's the way numbers work.

Yea right.

 

[psychoslice]

You're the one making claims all over this thread. Claims that you have absolutely no evidence for whatsoever. And here you are making another one, namely that every scientists is manipulating data for personal gain. All the while completely ignoring the fact that that's exactly what Andrew Wakefield did and the reason why he's no longer allowed to practice medicine!

I challenged those claims and backed up that up with verifiable, empirical scientific studies/research that can be viewed, replicated and/or checked by anyone.

There's a big difference between those two things. So no, that is definitely not exactly what I am doing. Please stop trying to drag me down to your level.

Your far below my level unfortunately.

 

[philbo]

Yea right.

In other words, you have no argument. No contradiction. There is no logical reason why I'm not right, but your "feeling" tells you otherwise (or you're just too proud to own up)

If you had a shred of intellectual honesty, you'd agree that your position is untenable.

 

[psychoslice]

In other words, you have no argument. No contradiction. There is no logical reason why I'm not right, but your "feeling" tells you otherwise (or you're just too proud to own up)

If you had a shred of intellectual honesty, you'd agree that your position is untenable.

If you had a shred of intelligence you would find out the truth for yourself, I am not going to play the game of copying and pasting, its all there if you know how to type.

 

[McBell]

If you had a shred of intelligence you would find out the truth for yourself, I am not going to play the game of copying and pasting, its all there if you know how to type.

to bad none of it is reliable...

 

[psychoslice]

to bad none of it is reliable...

Well again that's what I think of your evidence. People are suffering out there and all they say is that its a coincidence, over and over, when they themselves don't know what their talking about.

 

[McBell]

Well again that's what I think of your evidence. People are suffering out there and all they say is that its a coincidence, over and over, when they themselves don't know what their talking about.

*yawn*

More bold empty claims.

Now you are just being boring.

 

[psychoslice]

*yawn*

More bold empty claims.

Now you are just being boring.

Ha, your just after a fight, something to get your teeth into, but I don't do that, yes I am boring when it comes to a fight, I'm a lover not a fighter lol.

 

[NewGuyOnTheBlock]

Psychoslice, I don't want to fight either; but I do want to have a rational discussion.

You claim that vaccinations are harmful and insinuate that I, and other doubters, are blind to the "truth"; yet I present to you numbers of 10 Million vaccinations performed yearly on children under 1. While I concede that not everyone will react in the same way to the same medical procedures, there simply are no numbers or patterns to substantiate your claim.

So, let's narrow the field.

You claim that you (if memory serves) started having seizures after a vaccination.

Okay.

Which one? What was the chemical composition of that vaccine? How does that chemical composition relate to the functioning of the body and mind to cause such symptoms? How many other cases are you aware of who received the same vaccination and suffered the same symptoms? I take your claim at face value; but can you substantiate these other incidents you may have?

To substantiate your claim, you must either establish a pattern or a causal factor (i.e. this certain vaccine causes X because of Y). Emotionally moving stories doesn't establish these. Yes, I am emotionally moved by your plight; but that does not mean I blindly accept that your plight was caused by a vaccination. Linking us to "health care providers" who have been discredited doesn't establish these. "Just because" doesn't establish these.

Pattern or causality.

Without that, you have no hope whatsoever of changing the minds of skeptics.

 

[philbo]

If you had a shred of intelligence you would find out the truth for yourself, I am not going to play the game of copying and pasting, its all there if you know how to type.

"A shred of intelligence"? It's because I have a shred of intelligence & a decent education, I know how to evaluate sources, I know how to look at numbers.

I also know what is obfuscation and denial, and that's what I see in your posts.

As far as I can see, I have found the truth for myself, and am not swayed by the hundreds or thousands of conspiracy theory sites claiming vaccine-induced genocides which simply aren't there. I am convinced by academics looking at millions of cases of vaccination and seeing no harm; and I'm frankly bemused that anybody isn't convinced by these studies. You haven't managed to knock down the single one I've quoted, and there are dozens more in many different countries giving the same results. Simply saying "money", or "your[sic] stupid" is lazy and provably false. Doing the online equvalent of holding your hands over your ears going "la la la I'm not listening" is just hiding from what the rational side of your brain must be telling you.

 

[McBell]

Ha, your just after a fight, something to get your teeth into, but I don't do that, yes I am boring when it comes to a fight, I'm a lover not a fighter lol.

Actually, you have been nothing more than something to help waste time for quite some time now.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

If you had a shred of intelligence you would find out the truth for yourself, I am not going to play the game of copying and pasting, its all there if you know how to type.

It has nothing to do with intelligence. There are many reasons why one should give their sources, especially on the internet. I still remember when you had to tell people where you read or saw something, and then that person had to make an effort to retrieve that information. Why not take full advantage of what you have, very literally, at your fingertips?
The acquisition of knowledge is recursive, and is generally guided by peer-review. Peer-review isn't always the best, as Da Vinci was not always favored by his peers for his scientific findings and biological discoveries, but today we know that Da Vinci was way ahead of his times. But, nevertheless, it is a method that helps knowledge, because individual knowledge is extremely limited when compared to collective knowledge. It also helps us to better evaluate knowledge. This is where you sources fell short. I can see a few of yours, and I can compare it to the dozens of others I have read and the hundreds of others of studies that have reached the same conclusions that contradict yours.
It also gives us an idea as to how credible your sources are. This is the other area where your's fell short. The one looked like an advertisement (I'll try to remember to find it, but it looks very similar to this one website that sells a program to help male-to-female transgenders develop a feminine voice).
Sharing your sources also lets the reader know you have done your homework, assures the reader you aren't just making things up, it gives the reader a trail to follow (this is one of the reasons Milton Friedman annoys me is because I can't go back and follow through with many of his claims because he used sources very sparingly), and it lets the reader know you are capable of research. Academically and scientifically you will get no where if you do not give your sources.

 

[amineaouaq9]

Messi .. Star from another planet !

Watch here :
Find Yourself: Messi .. Star from another planet

 

[SkepticThinker]

Your far below my level unfortunately.

Thanks for the laugh.

You provide unsubstantiated claims that you seemingly have pulled out of your derriere.

I provide reasonable explanations and evidence.

But I'm on a level below you!?

 

[SkepticThinker]

If you had a shred of intelligence you would find out the truth for yourself, I am not going to play the game of copying and pasting, its all there if you know how to type.

He just told you the truth. Those things he explained about human nature and behavior are well documented.

"Yea right" is a pathetic response, imo.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Psychoslice, I don't want to fight either; but I do want to have a rational discussion.

You claim that vaccinations are harmful and insinuate that I, and other doubters, are blind to the "truth"; yet I present to you numbers of 10 Million vaccinations performed yearly on children under 1. While I concede that not everyone will react in the same way to the same medical procedures, there simply are no numbers or patterns to substantiate your claim.

So, let's narrow the field.

You claim that you (if memory serves) started having seizures after a vaccination.

Okay.

Which one? What was the chemical composition of that vaccine? How does that chemical composition relate to the functioning of the body and mind to cause such symptoms? How many other cases are you aware of who received the same vaccination and suffered the same symptoms? I take your claim at face value; but can you substantiate these other incidents you may have?

To substantiate your claim, you must either establish a pattern or a causal factor (i.e. this certain vaccine causes X because of Y). Emotionally moving stories doesn't establish these. Yes, I am emotionally moved by your plight; but that does not mean I blindly accept that your plight was caused by a vaccination. Linking us to "health care providers" who have been discredited doesn't establish these. "Just because" doesn't establish these.

Pattern or causality.

Without that, you have no hope whatsoever of changing the minds of skeptics.

This ^^^

 

[Shadow Wolf]

My friend got her kids vaccinated yesterday for school.
It sucks that they aren't even my kids and it's making me feel old because "damn, they're already that old?"

 

[psychoslice]

Here is a video that will make you laugh.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Here is a video that will make you laugh.

Not laugh. Maybe write a song about cleansing those who taint knowledge with fire in the name of Lucifer to vent anger and frustrations, but not laugh. Want to bash his skull in with a biology book, perhaps, but not laugh.
There is nothing ever funny about needlessly putting children at harm, and, very clearly, the benefits have heavily outweighed the risks.