Vaccination and Religious Beliefs

[psychoslice]

Not laugh. Maybe write a song about cleansing those who taint knowledge with fire in the name of Lucifer to vent anger and frustrations, but not laugh. Want to bash his skull in with a biology book, perhaps, but not laugh.
There is nothing ever funny about needlessly putting children at harm, and, very clearly, the benefits have heavily outweighed the risks.

I laugh at the silliness of it all back then, sometimes its better to laugh than cry.

 

[Izdaari]

I don't have any religious beliefs that bear on the subject of vaccination. I'm a orthodox if liberalish Christian, who is also a pro-choice libertarian.

 

[NewGuyOnTheBlock]

Here is a video that will make you laugh.

1) That doesn't even come CLOSE to demonstrating dangers of vaccinations, Psychoslice. If anything, it shows the dangers of importing animals, which does not relate to "placing our children in danger with vaccination programs".

2) If this audio clip is banned from public view, why is it available on YouTube? According to conspiracy theorists, they are able to control the media, governments, major coporations, etc; but can't control YouTube!?

3) Demonstrating concerns from (how long ago was this video when the science was still "crude"? Looks about the 1950's or possibly 60's by the looks on the videos) pertain to modern medicine?

4) Can you not understand that much of what this Hilleman said was dry and dark humor? Can you not understand humor? Have you not noticed that taking words out of context is one of the primary tools that irrational conspiracy theorists use?

5) Are you not aware that different biological organism (hamsters vs. humans) are very different; that because something causes cancer in hamsters doesn't necessarily cause cancer in humans? Are you aware that cucumbers are deadly and toxic ... for birds of the Amazon, such as Macaws?

You have failed to establish either causality or a pattern, imho.

 

[psychoslice]

1) That doesn't even come CLOSE to demonstrating dangers of vaccinations, Psychoslice. If anything, it shows the dangers of importing animals, which does not relate to "placing our children in danger with vaccination programs".

2) If this audio clip is banned from public view, why is it available on YouTube? According to conspiracy theorists, they are able to control the media, governments, major coporations, etc; but can't control YouTube!?

3) Demonstrating concerns from (how long ago was this video when the science was still "crude"? Looks about the 1950's or possibly 60's by the looks on the videos) pertain to modern medicine?

4) Can you not understand that much of what this Hilleman said was dry and dark humor? Can you not understand humor? Have you not noticed that taking words out of context is one of the primary tools that irrational conspiracy theorists use?

5) Are you not aware that different biological organism (hamsters vs. humans) are very different; that because something causes cancer in hamsters doesn't necessarily cause cancer in humans? Are you aware that cucumbers are deadly and toxic ... for birds of the Amazon, such as Macaws?

You have failed to establish either causality or a pattern, imho.

Ha, your impossible, you just wont believe anything outside your little square, I don't know why I even wast my time, but yea, thanks for another laugh lol.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Ha, your impossible, you just wont believe anything outside your little square, I don't know why I even wast my time, but yea, thanks for another laugh lol.

Why can't you address his points, if your perspective on this is so obvious??

 

[Theweirdtophat]

The point is there are dangers to it. There HAVE been people that suffered from some vaccines. Does every single vaccine hurt people? No, but it IS more common than people think. Companies who rush untested vaccines end up getting people hurt. Some aren't tested enough some have different effects on different people. But there is a reason why people are hesitant to take it. If there was nothing to worry about. You wouldn't SEE people hesitating to take it, and it isn't because of their religious beliefs either. They know that some aren't good for you and have either long or short term effects. It isn't just kooky crazy paranoia that holds them back, they have reasons for hesitating to take it.

 

[NewGuyOnTheBlock]

The point is there are dangers to it. There HAVE been people that suffered from some vaccines. Does every single vaccine hurt people? No, but it IS more common than people think. Companies who rush untested vaccines end up getting people hurt. Some aren't tested enough some have different effects on different people. But there is a reason why people are hesitant to take it. If there was nothing to worry about. You wouldn't SEE people hesitating to take it, and it isn't because of their religious beliefs either. They know that some aren't good for you and have either long or short term effects. It isn't just kooky crazy paranoia that holds them back, they have reasons for hesitating to take it.

Nothing is without risk. But to say that a thing that is not without risk is dangerous is a stretch. You are at risk of death each and every time you drive your car. That doesn't make driving cars dangerous. It makes driving cars "not without risk".

 

[philbo]

The point is there are dangers to it. There HAVE been people that suffered from some vaccines.

But nobody is saying there are no dangers to vaccination, or that nobody has ever been hurt by vaccination. Just that the risk is way lower than the diseases protected against.

Does every single vaccine hurt people? No, but it IS more common than people think.

I would very strongly dispute that: seems to me that there are a significant number of people vastly exaggerating the dangers & getting a disproportionate amount of media time with their scare stories. Unless when you say "than people think" you mean "just those people who think there is zero risk", of whom there appear to be none.

Companies who rush untested vaccines end up getting people hurt. Some aren't tested enough some have different effects on different people.

Could you supply some evidence for these untested vaccines, please. Because it sounds to me like "something I heard down the pub from a chap who usually talks a lot of bull yet in this instance he made a lot of sense" - rumour, hearsay... whatever you want to call it.

But there is a reason why people are hesitant to take it. If there was nothing to worry about. You wouldn't SEE people hesitating to take it,

DO YOU READ NOTHING IN THIS THREAD???? I've already answered why people blame vaccines for things that happened at the same time, those people making lots of noise about it makes others hesitant to vaccinate. There doesn't have to be anything to worry about whatsoever for people believe there is.

and it isn't because of their religious beliefs either. They know that some aren't good for you and have either long or short term effects. It isn't just kooky crazy paranoia that holds them back, they have reasons for hesitating to take it.

..they have reasons, but they're not based on evidence most of the time.

 

[Nietzsche]

The point is there are dangers to it. There HAVE been people that suffered from some vaccines. Does every single vaccine hurt people? No, but it IS more common than people think. Companies who rush untested vaccines end up getting people hurt. Some aren't tested enough some have different effects on different people. But there is a reason why people are hesitant to take it. If there was nothing to worry about. You wouldn't SEE people hesitating to take it, and it isn't because of their religious beliefs either. They know that some aren't good for you and have either long or short term effects. It isn't just kooky crazy paranoia that holds them back, they have reasons for hesitating to take it.

I'll take my chances with possibly being hurt or killed by a vaccine rather than certainly being hurt or killed by TB, polio or what have you.

 

[Theweirdtophat]

DO YOU READ NOTHING IN THIS THREAD???? I've already answered why people blame vaccines for things that happened at the same time, those people making lots of noise about it makes others hesitant to vaccinate. There doesn't have to be anything to worry about whatsoever for people believe there is.


..they have reasons, but they're not based on evidence most of the time.

Actually you didn't. At least not very well. Otherwise I still wouldn't stick by my stance. People make noise supporting or going against it. Perhaps it's because people actually witnessed others getting sick from some of them or remembering times where some drugs were recalled due to too many people getting sick from it. I don't get spoon fed information, I look this stuff up, not just take people's word for it.

Why do people ask for evidence when they just reject it and say "Lolz you made that up. Derp." Almost all the time people will ask for some kind of evidence but still reject it and stick with their original view and it seems like nothing outside of undeniable proof staring at your face is going to change your opinion and even that's not certain, as you might still reject it because you don't want to accept it.

 

[philbo]

Actually you didn't. At least not very well. Otherwise I still wouldn't stick by my stance. People make noise supporting or going against it. Perhaps it's because people actually witnessed others getting sick from some of them or remembering times where some drugs were recalled due to too many people getting sick from it. I don't get spoon fed information, I look this stuff up, not just take people's word for it.

What would you disagree about with the following:

1. If you vaccinate millions of people, some of them will have a reaction caused by something else at about the same time as the vaccine (from simple laws of averages)
2. Some of these people will blame the vaccine (even though if you look at equavlent populations of unvaccinated people, you see *exactly the same* levels of adverse events happening at the same ages)
3. Some of these people will go on television, on the radio and the internet blaming the vaccination
4. Some people will see/hear/read this and believe that vaccines have caused harm

5. The only way to tell whether a vaccine is actually correlated with harm is to compare vaccinated and unvaccinated populations. It really doesn't matter how many "my baby got sick after his vaccination" stories you have if there's an equal proportion of "my baby got sick just after he would have had his vaccinations, but didn't".. the latter are never reported, so how would you know how many there are?

Why do people ask for evidence when they just reject it and say "Lolz you made that up. Derp." Almost all the time people will ask for some kind of evidence but still reject it and stick with their original view and it seems like nothing outside of undeniable proof staring at your face is going to change your opinion and even that's not certain, as you might still reject it because you don't want to accept it.

Evidence does make me change my mind about things: there are quite a few over the years I've been wrong about & accepted that. The last study I posted on this thread looked at autism rates of 95,000 children, both vaccinated and otherwise, and saw very slightly lower rates of autism in the vaccinated children (note that the authors didn't say "look! vaccines protect against autism", they went looking for confounding factors which might explain the correlation).

That's the sort of evidence that makes be believe things - not youtube videos (however poor the production) quoting people out of context, not people who keep trying to find something else to blame on vaccines requiring yet more studies done properly to prove them wrong, not sites like mercola or whale.to that print any old unevidence twaddle so long as it fits their conspiracy view. There have been literally hundreds of studies, probably thousands, nearly all of which show just how safe vaccines are.

Notice, however, that when a vaccine does cause a problem (a recent one that has just come to my attention: 2 babies die after vaccination in southern Mexico - CNN.com ), there is no attempt to cover up or pretend it didn't happen. They tried to work out why (probably a failure in the refrigeration - my Spanish is non-existent so it's what google translate made of this: Falló cadena de frío en vacunas | El Economista ).

 

[NewGuyOnTheBlock]

Why do people ask for evidence when they just reject it and say "Lolz you made that up. Derp." Almost all the time people will ask for some kind of evidence but still reject it and stick with their original view and it seems like nothing outside of undeniable proof staring at your face is going to change your opinion and even that's not certain, as you might still reject it because you don't want to accept it.

Then cite your source. Find a study, survey, whathavya, so that the details of the claim can be determined and analyzed. "Argument by Declaration" is a failed argument.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Actually you didn't. At least not very well. Otherwise I still wouldn't stick by my stance. People make noise supporting or going against it. Perhaps it's because people actually witnessed others getting sick from some of them or remembering times where some drugs were recalled due to too many people getting sick from it. I don't get spoon fed information, I look this stuff up, not just take people's word for it.

Why do people ask for evidence when they just reject it and say "Lolz you made that up. Derp." Almost all the time people will ask for some kind of evidence but still reject it and stick with their original view and it seems like nothing outside of undeniable proof staring at your face is going to change your opinion and even that's not certain, as you might still reject it because you don't want to accept it.

I talked about it several times too. So have others. It appears you will stick by your stance, regardless.

 

[psychoslice]

Why can't you address his points, if your perspective on this is so obvious??

Why don't you look at that which I do present ?.

 

[psychoslice]

Nothing is without risk. But to say that a thing that is not without risk is dangerous is a stretch. You are at risk of death each and every time you drive your car. That doesn't make driving cars dangerous. It makes driving cars "not without risk".

But if there is a default in one of the cars or car model, they are withdrawn and the problem fixed, they don't make the same mistake again.

 

[NewGuyOnTheBlock]

Why don't you look at that which I do present ?.

We do. We simply find it less than compelling. The reasons we find it less than compelling are clearly indicated in our rebuttals. We would not be able to provide you with the reasons we find it less than compelling if we didn't look at it first.

 

[NewGuyOnTheBlock]

But if there is a default in one of the cars or car model, they are withdrawn and the problem fixed, they don't make the same mistake again.

Correct. And medicines that are found to be faulty are also withdrawn from the market and the mistake is not made again. Here is a length list of medications that were found to be faulty (and dangerous) and were pulled from the market:

35 FDA-Approved Prescription Drugs Later Pulled from the Market - Prescription Drug Ads - ProCon.org

 

[psychoslice]

We do. We simply find it less than compelling. The reasons we find it less than compelling are clearly indicated in our rebuttals. We would not be able to provide you with the reasons we find it less than compelling if we didn't look at it first.

So whatever I present you will never agree with, as I wont with what you present, but thousands of people are starting to wake up, its only a matter of time, when the crap is going to hit the fan lol.

 

[psychoslice]

Correct. And medicines that are found to be faulty are also withdrawn from the market and the mistake is not made again. Here is a length list of medications that were found to be faulty (and dangerous) and were pulled from the market:

35 FDA-Approved Prescription Drugs Later Pulled from the Market - Prescription Drug Ads - ProCon.org

Yes I agree that some medications are withdrawn, but not until many people have died, and this is what is going to happen with many vaccines, the writing is on the wall, you only need to look.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

So whatever I present you will never agree with, as I wont with what you present, but thousands of people are starting to wake up, its only a matter of time, when the crap is going to hit the fan lol.

We would accept your sources if they met a certain minimum of academic quality. But you haven't posted anything that can be regarded as credible.